The Shame Triangle: Why Self-Aware People Still Get Stuck in Relationships [19]

Why do so many self-aware people still find themselves stuck in the same relationship patterns?

In this conversation, Forest sits down with Jessica Fern (author of Polysecure) and David Cooley (co-author of Polywise) to explore their groundbreaking framework, The Shame Triangle—a practical model for understanding how shame, self-criticism, and coping strategies quietly shape our relationships, emotional well-being, and sense of self.

Together they unpack parts work, Internal Family Systems (IFS), spirituality, attachment wounds, conflict, self-love, and the hidden ways shame keeps us disconnected from ourselves and the people we care about most. They also share personal stories about divorce, conscious relationships, monogamy, non-monogamy, and the lifelong journey of healing.

If you've ever wondered why awareness alone isn't enough to create lasting change, this episode offers a compassionate roadmap for transforming shame into deeper self-acceptance, connection, and intimacy.

Topics include: shame, parts work, Internal Family Systems (IFS), attachment, trauma healing, relationship conflict, self-love, spirituality, emotional regulation, conscious relationships, monogamy, non-monogamy, and personal growth.

Chapters

00:00 Shame, Intimacy & Why This Conversation Matters

Forest shares his personal experience with shame, emotional triggers, and how shame can quietly interfere with intimacy.

05:15 Why Jessica Fern & David Cooley Wrote Transforming the Shame Triangle

The inspiration behind the book and why shame became the missing piece in so much healing and relationship work.

11:00 Why Self-Aware People Still Get Stuck

The hidden role shame plays in blocking accountability, growth, emotional availability, and relationship repair.

17:30 Spirituality, Consciousness & Relationships as a Path of Growth

Jessica and David share how they define spirituality, consciousness, and personal evolution.

28:00 Parts Work, IFS & Self-Leadership

What Internal Family Systems teaches about parts, Self energy, and healing internal conflict.

40:00 Why Parts Work Actually Works

How identifying different parts of ourselves creates more choice, emotional regulation, and resilience.

49:00 Understanding the Shame Triangle

The Inner Critic, Shame, and Escaper—and how these three forces keep us trapped in repeating patterns.

1:02:00 How Shame Shows Up in Everyday Life

Jessica shares a powerful story illustrating how even success and positive experiences can trigger shame.

1:10:00 From the Shame Triangle to the Self-Love Triangle

How compassion, curiosity, and self-leadership transform shame into healing.

1:17:00 Autoimmune Illness, Stress & Emotional Health

Exploring the relationship between shame, chronic stress, inflammation, and mind-body healing.

1:25:00 Divorce, Conscious Relationships & Authentic Relating

Jessica and David share how they transitioned from marriage to a new form of partnership.

1:34:00 Forest's Journey from Relationship Anarchy to Conscious Exclusivity

A candid discussion about monogamy, non-monogamy, emotional intimacy, identity, and authenticity.

1:47:00 Practical Wisdom for Healing Shame

Key takeaways, resources, and where to learn more about Transforming the Shame Triangle.

Transcript

I don't know about you, but for me, I know it can be really triggering sometimes when I'm being witnessed so up close by my partner in my shadows, in my triggers, in my kind of dysfunctional patterns I've inherited from the world, from my familyUm, stuff that I don't really choose necessarily, but it's been conditioned or programmed into me, or you know, my subconscious nervous system has learned, "Oh, this is what it takes to be safe.You have to be a little bit guarded," um, or whatever, you know, what have you.It can feel a bit cringe for me sometimes to be witnessed to that depth by a single person, and then that feeling of like, "And do you still love me?"It's so vulnerable and tender.And for me personally, what can really get in the way of deepening intimacy, even though that's the thing I want the most in the world, is shame.So if I, within myself, let's say for example, a funky pattern I've inherited is, um, sometimes I can get kind of defensive when my partner's setting a boundary with me, which is not aligned with my values, and that's why it brings up shame, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, goodness, why am I doing this?What does this person think of me?What do I even think of myself?This like, like why am I acting in a way that I don't like?"It's easy, I think, to get hooked on the self-criticism, and that, of course, triggers maybe a bit of escaping.So maybe, like for me, sometimes I can get emotionally overwhelmed, or what I used to do is I just used to numb out.Um, but anyways, shame can be such a barrier to intimacy, and I'm starting to realize this more and more, um, in my journey.And you'll hear more about this in the interview.But I, I'm really delighted to introduce you to today's guests.You may or may not know them already.They've already co-authored, um, a few books together, and they offer a very practical framework in their book, Transforming the Shame Triangle, um, to help you not get stuck in the shame to where it can get in the way of intimacy.So i- I think it's a natural emotion for humans to experience.There's a lot of kind of funky stuff we just get thrown into, um, when we incarnate into Earth.It's kind of a crazy world down here right now.Um, and so shame just inevitably comes up, and Transforming the Shame Triangle, their new book, helps you really just have a practical framework to not get stuck on that so you can continue deepening trust and intimacy in your relationship.So Jessica Fern is a certified clinical trauma professional and an integrative therapist.She wrote Polysecure, and David Cooley is the creator of the Restorative Relationship Conversations model.It's a framework that brings principles of restorative justice into personal intimate relationships.And it's cool 'cause the book also weaves in, um, elements of, um, restorative justice that David brings in, which I think is really cool.We don't really talk about that in the interview, but definitely check out the book.I, I recommend.Um, anyways, they co-authored Polywise together, which is a sequel to Polysecure, and now of course they have Transforming the Shame Triangle.So without further ado, let's get into it.If you're deeply committed to your relationship but keep getting pulled into the same reactive loops that feel disconnecting, you're not alone.I'm Forrest Williams, certified relationship coach, and I guide devoted couples to untangle the unconscious dynamics that get in the way of intimacy and quietly erode connection over time.Here, we explore conscious relating as a spiritual practice, where your relationship becomes a sanctuary for healing, growth, and a steady source of joy instead of struggle.Dave, Jessica, welcome to the Conscious Relating Podcast.I'm super, super delighted to have you here, and I think, um, our listeners will really resonate with what you've shared in your books, but also, you know, whatever you have to share today.So thanks for being on.Yeah.Thank you for having us, Forrest.Yeah, thanks.It's great to be here.Hmm.I wanted to start off by actually just asking what inspired you to write this specific book?'Cause I have read the other 2 books, um, that you've, you've done, and I do notice that this one is not specifically non-monogamy oriented, whereas the first 2 were.So what had you transitioned inWell, I don't know if it's a transition.Yeah.But what inspired this topic?Yeah, this book is a shift.It's for a more general audience than a specific kinda relational niche, and it was something that was brewing in me for a while, and something that asI, I joke that it's an inner polyamory, basically.Our first, or my first 2 books, our first book together was about the outer, you know- Mm-hmmmultiplicity of love and relationship, and so this is about the inner multiplicity.And in working with people, whether it's one-on-one or in their partnerships, um, I just kept seeing this as the inner obstacle that was getting in the way.Mm-hmm.And once I started to map it, and once I started to bring it to people, it was like our work just took off so much faster.It was incredible.Hmm.People's healing, their trauma healing, their interpersonal dynamics.And so then, yeah, Dave, you can jump in with just when I brought that to you, you were like, "Oh, this is something for us to focus on."Yeah.There was definitely a, a serendipitous parallel, you know, 'cause I had been thinking about what are some of the root causes to making interpersonal relationships feel really intractable and stuck.And one of the things that I was seeing over and over again, kind of by my own analysis, was that there was shame underneath.You know, shame that was present for one individual that was making it almost impossible to really lean into and accept feedback.And so these repair loops would get hindered because people weren't able to really make sincere acknowledgments or take accountability because it brought up too much shame.And so I was seeing that shame was really the cornerstone or sort of the linchpin for a lot of conflict dynamics, and it wasn't until we were actually able to touch that explicitly that then we were able to get traction.But then when you start touching into shame, that in and of itself is a really deep, complex process.And so I was realizing, "Oh, there has to be a way-to focus on shame that's actually getting to the root of it," because I'm realizing that to do my work with partners, I'm having to stop and go back to the intrapersonal, the within individual level, and work on this question of shame, so then they- Mmcan come back to the interpersonal dynamic and take accountability after having worked through the parts of them that are really holding the shame.But when you start to look at shame, what are you talking about?Right?And, uh, whenSo when Jessica brought this model of an internalized drama triangle, I was just like, "Oh, this is, this is it.This is-" Mm."This is the, this is the Rosetta Stone of like one of the deepest reasons why conflict gets stuck."So I was just, "Yeah, let's write this book.We need to write this book.I have so many clients right now that need this book.I want to focus on this."So it was just a no-brainer.Yeah.That'sIt really resonates with me, and I had actually bought the book before we had ever scheduled this interview I love itand I was reading it, yeah, because I had this epiphany of like, "Oh my God, shame is so much more present for me than I realized."That's right.Um, and in my early 20s, I really overdid the alcohol thing and had to cut that out.But then I was a very heavy cannabis user after that, like, and it got to a point where I was, like, really just numbing out with it.And so I've been off of that for 2 years, l- like almost 3 years, and it's shocking for me to s- like still be unpacking all the shame that- Mmthe cannabis was, like, essentially escaping, you know?Right.And we can talk more about the components of the shame triangle.Um, but anyways, I, I'm personally in this chapter where I'm like, "Oh my God, I have, like, so much more shame than I realized," you know?Because I, I like take pride in being self-aware and doing shadow work and whatever.I'm like a relationship coach.So it was kind of like this shocking awareness of like, "Oh my gosh, I need to unpack a lot of shame that's still here," because exactly as you were saying, it was getting in the way of my ability to, like, receive my partner's feedback.I would just be overwhelmed with the shame, and it would kind of, uh, make me less emotionally available in that moment.Mm-hmm.And so I, I started looking at resources, and I was like, "Oh my God, this book is perfect."Yeah.And that was the real goal is we wanted to make people more ashamed of their shame.We want people to see the weight of shame and see how big it is, and that it's this unrelenting mountain that they'll never get out from under.I'm, I'm kidding.I'm, I'm being facetious.But itI think it, I think it is- But that's what it feels likeit's, it's, that's what this feels like, and it isI really feel that sense of awe and humbledness with my own work personally.Like, I think that's what's interesting about this, this book to me, uh, in hindsight, is it's so ubiquitous and so deeply entrenched, and I think more so than we'd like to believe.And so I'm realizing that, you know, and there's been other people that have said this, but part of shame's power is we don't talk about it, we don't look at it 'cause it is so painful, and I don't think we have enough models or enough tools to really figure out how to stay regulated in response to our own shame.Yeah.I think we're pretty underdeveloped in response to shame, um, socially, and so this is something I'm really wanting people to have access to.Yeah, it really is normalized.Right.Like, the, the voice of the inner critic, a voice that beats us up and says, "What's wrong with you?"Or, "Don't do that.You should, you shouldn't."It's like that becomes a normal part of our inner landscape- Mm-hmmthat we just accept as is instead of go, "Wait a minute," like, "Why do I have this voice that says this to me?"And maybe it doesn't have to be that way.And so, but I think for this we really wanted to have an offering that walked people through here's the steps to start to transform it- Mm-hmm'cause it can feel so daunting.Yeah.Yeah.I have to say, I, that's what I really appreciate about this specific book.I think you do, like, a very thorough job at explaining the concepts and breaking it down layer by layer, so it's very clear and understandable.But it feels very holistic compared- Mmto other self-help books in a way, um, because there are so many exercises.Like, an abundance of, like, tangible things that you can do to work with so many different layers of what comes up.And what I like about that is, like, you don't pretend it's a one-size-fits-all, and so you give kind of like a plethora of menu items for people to see what really resonates or what works for them.So there's that actionable piece, which I think really resonates with my audience because the kind of people who resonate with my work are the kind of people who are very self-aware.They're go- still getting stuck on something.They're like, "Okay, but- Yeahhow do I implement the change?"Right.What do I do?Yeah.So the book is great for that because there are so many exercises, but there's also w- what I would refer to as, like, the spiritual piece.I don't know if you explicitly refer to it that way, but I really actually appreciated, um, just hearing more about your backgrounds in the book of- Yeahhow you relate to spirituality.And I think it can be kind of a loaded word- Yeah'cause people have so much trauma around religion, and you- Rightacknowledge that in the book, which I also appreciated.Um, but my listeners specifically, there's, like, a spiritual element into the podcast.The whole premise is relating to relationships as a vessel for spiritual growth.So before we dig deeper into, like, the components of the shame triangle, I would love to, um, hear more about, like, how would you actually describe your spirituality?Because I think it is this kind of more nuanced thing.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah, I'll start.I think for me, when I hear the word spirituality, I have a bridge to the concept of consciousness, and so I think that's where a lot of my spirituality really is grounded in the concept of consciousness, and consciousness is a really big and expansive concept for me to relate to.And one of the ways that I understand that is the capacity to process and integrate and make meaning of more and more complexity.And so for me, the growth or expansion of consciousness is really about that.It's about learning how to relate to a world that's multifaceted, multidimensional, multilayered, right?There's a lot of frequencies that we can see and not see, and there's a lot of ways to relate to life depending on how we're able to expand our paradigmatic modeling of reality, right?And to me, that all is reduced to how much complexity can you hold without becoming overwhelmed by it or shutting down or having to go into some kind of strategic relationship to manage it.Um, it's kind of an intellectual, convoluted way of saying it, I feel, when I hear myself say it, but this is where I'm really grounded.So I see relationships as one of the most significant and tangible paths to developing human consciousness.And within that, conflict in particular, which is why I'm drawn to managing and helping people deal differently with relational conflict, is because for me it's a legitimate and literal path to greater states of human consciousness.Hmm.Um, I think crisis create crucibles through which we're able to really be invited into expanding our awareness of things that we weren't previously.Can you repeat the question so I don't just respond to what Dave said?Yeah.How would you describe your spirituality?Yeah.I would describe it at this point as very ordinary, as very integrated.Um, I'd say my 20s and 30s wereand I'm in my 40s now, um, but those years were very much about specific spiritual traditions and practices and devotion to those practices and intensives and retreats, and it was so important.And now it feels like it's just in all the things, right?My parenting is spiritual.Washing the dishes is spiritual.Being in relationship is spiritual.Writing is a spiritual experience, and it's also quite ordinary.So I think it's, you know, in the book we're talking about Self with a capital S, and so it's really living more self-led, where I'm in touch with little self me and, you know, big cosmic consciousness me- Mm-hmmand, and all of it.So yeah, that's how it is in this moment, and the more I'm on my own human journey, the more I think, "Oh, spirituality is just being more and more human."Um, you know, integral theory is really helpful for that, where it's mapping out stages of psychological development, and as you keep going, it looks more spiritual- Mmbut it's really just the human experience.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.I, I can relate to what both of you are saying and, um, for, for me, I mean, spirituality is such a big topic, but to me, if I could summarize it, it's like getting back to truth.And I feel like all the conditioning and the- Mm-hmmsystems that be, um, they kind of take us away from truth.And I appreciate that you name the external influences and, you know, it's like, is this even yours or is this like ancestral, what you're carrying?Is it epigenetic?Is it like capitalist influence or patriarchal influence?And I feel like for me, bec- like the reason relationships can be so spiritual is because it kind of, like all the systems and the default societal programming is like disconnecting.It does not lead- Yeahto connection.Right.And so it's kind of like untangling all that stuff we're just kind of, uh, wading in to get back to the truth and to get back to the, the capital S Self.Like, like what is your actually authentic way of showing up in the world, and then how does your relationship transform when you're coming from that place?Yeah.And this book, you know, is specific about the relationship with self, and so that's an interesting transition for us to go from working with interrelationships, interpersonal relationships, to now really focused on what does the relationship with self really look like on a nuanced, granular level.And even more specifically, what are, like how does that self manifest through the internal voices that we really hear a large percentage of the time?And I think what's interesting, to go back to that question of the ubiquity of shame, is a lot of us, if we're honest, I think are experiencing a relationship with self that feels what we would call adversarial.Mm.We're not really in allyship, deep allyship with our own self.Um, and that's because I think we're actually more identified with the voices of parts.And these parts are holding a lot of pain points that, right, come from internalized ex- like external sources.Mm-hmm.You know?Mm-hmm.But until we really make that internalization explicit, we're just thinking, "What's wrong with me?"Yeah, and it's also fractal, isn't it?Like, if you're adversarial with yourself, then how effective can you be when your intention is to collaborate in your partnership, but then you have all this internal things on a micro level that maybe are preventing you from getting there.So to me it seems like a very fruitful place to focus is like ground 0, if you will, and then it all kind of ripples out like in fractals.Yeah.Absolutely.Right?It's hard to accept, um, something in our partner if we're not accepting certain aspects of ourself.And it can be so quick and unconscious, like our partner is interested in something, but we don't allow ourself to be interested in something new.So it's like we go to shut it down in them real fast.Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.Yeah.Yeah.So I'd love to, um, touch more on the anatomy of the shame triangle.It feels soLike parts work feels like such a key component of it, so I'm not sure like where to start with the parts or, or with the actual shame triangle itself.Where do you wanna take it?I'll just start with parts work.Right?The overall, you know, it's, it's is a worldview I guess you can say, that comes from psychology, neuroscience.It comes from many spiritual traditions for a long time, way before there was, you know, Western psychology, that internally our psychology or our inner makeup is not one thing, that it's made up of many, and that that's wonderful.That's not a pathology or a dysfunction.Um, it can become problematic, but we have many different sides to ourselves, and all of those different parts is they are like subpersonalities with different feelings, different perspectives, and different needs.So that's the basic premise.And even if we're not thinking in terms of parts, you know, we say this in the intro, like youAnd we all intuitively know it when we- a part of us wants to go out, a part of us wants to stay home.Mm.Or a part of us loves certain movies sometimes, and then, you know, does- hates those kind of movies other times.Mm.Yeah.That's it.You wanna add to that, Dave?Yeah.No, I think that's a good baseline description.You know, I think the only counterpoint is then self, you know, being the part of us that in a sense more than a part.More than a part, yeah.Right.But really the, the essence of our being.So I really like parts work because it's making this fundamental ontological distinction between parts and self, and really inviting a new kind of relationship to self in the sense that you're making that distinction, right, in, in an embodied way.It's not just a, an intellectual exercise or an imagined thing.You start to connect to ways that thoughts and somatic experiences really manifest very differently depending on whether or not you're blended with parts activity and the way that you behave when you are, versus when grounded with self and connected to self.It's such a profound thing.It's such a tangible thing.Um, and really helping people to of witness for themselves where they are, and it's not just always a clean it's part or self.Sometimes there's flavors of both, but when people can really feel that for themselves and navigate that for themselves and have a sense of choice, the work starts to get a kind of traction that it wouldn't have had otherwise.And so I'm excited about parts work because it works.Mm-hmm.It, uhAnd you're making an important distinction.You know, in the therapy world, there's actually a bunch of different parts work modalities.Mm-hmm.But Internal Family Systems, IFS specifically, is the one that's really bringing self forward.So not all of the other parts modalities talk about self.Right.And I think that is why IFS is so much more effective, um, or has become reallyIt's in a boom right now.It's very popular for a good reason.Because of this, you know, it's a psycho-spiritual model, and it is connecting capital S self, and that that's where the healing takes place.Mm.Yeah.I mean, I personally really resonate with parts work and with the IFS framework.I have worked with some people who are kinda resistant to that.Mm-hmm.They have more of like an Aquarian spirit to them, and they're like, "Oh, it's so mainstream now.It's trending," and they feel this, uh, aversion to like jumping on the bandwagon of sorts.Oh, that's- Isn't that interesting?That is interesting.So maybe you could, um, explain like beyond the trend of it, 'cause it, like you're saying, like it's booming for a reason.It, it works.Maybe you can explain a little bit more about like how does it work or why does it work.Like, what's the difference when you're not doing the parts work, and how does that kind of feed the shame triangle?Yeah.I'll start that piece, and then maybe you can pick up the shame triangle, Dave.'Cause I think, you know, in other parts modalities orWe can just start to have that awareness of all of our parts, and then it's like, "What the hell do I do with all these parts?"Right?Like, "Okay.Great.I'm aware of my neurotic parts and my, you know, defensive parts and my beautiful parts, but I don't necessarily know what to do."Or we just use- we try to heal from other parts of us that are trying to still like get over it and control the healing therapeutic process.Like, "I wanna be done with this already."That's a part of us that has an agenda, right?So we can get caught in these parts that have agendas or trying to heal and work with the other parts, and it usually stalls.Like, sometimes you can get some traction, but it usually stalls.Whereas what is effective is when I'm aligned in self energy that isn't an agenda.It's about being-ness, not doing-ness, and my self can hold whatever is going on with any of these parts and can relate to any of these parts with care and understanding.That's where this deep healing within actually takes place.And it's very real.It's very profound.And, you know, I don't wanna give a promise, but it just, it is, does seem like a faster path Mm.For people.So I think that's what it is, is it's, it is really effective.Mm.And it's giving pe- It's empowering them.You're doing the healing yourself.You're not actually reliant on your therapist.To figure yourself out or to work with these parts.Yeah.Once you get enough experience with some of the techniques and concepts, you can really start to do a lot on your own, which I like.To be honest, for the first few years after being exposed to it or introduced to it, I thought it was bullshit.Well, and Dave's a double Aquarius, let's just name that.Since you said Aquarian.Sounds perfect.Yeah.A lot of cynicism, a lot of just re- I felt a sense of repugnance to the concept of parts and talking to parts as if they were different entities or people or whatever.Um, you know, so for me, I can really commiserate with people that feel that resistance.Um, and the nomenclature and the system itself is not for everybody, and that's good.That's a good thing,Um, it's a model.And so to the degree that the model feels resonant, awesome.To the degree it doesn't, don't worry about it.There's other ways to do this work.For me, though, I find it highly efficient if you're in alignment with some core principles.Like, if we can sidestep some of the nomenclature and really talk about states of being.Like, when we're talking about states of being, we're talking about, right, an embodied experience where you're vibrating a certain way, your body's releasing certain neurochemicals, hormones.Like, there's measurable ways to talk about, right, what a state of being is, and then there's corresponding emotions and thoughts, right?There's patterns of belief that start to emerge, right?It's really about tracking these states of being and seeing the ways that those in- influence how we relate to, again, ourselves or other people.And so we could sidestep the concept of parts completely and just start talking about states of being.And then look at what are those thoughts, and those thoughts that are triggering what we could call dysregulated states, whether they're sympathetic fight-flight responses or dorsal shutdown responses.There's gonna be some kind of narrative usually attached, and that narrative is usually attached to some past experience, right?This is a pain that I'm remembering that's been internalized to some degree in the nervous system.It triggers this state as I remember it and start mentating on this exp- previous experience.This current experience or circumstances is starting to provoke that and feel associative, and you're no longer in the place that we could say is a self-led state, right?Your nervous system, your thoughts, your feelings, everything is different when what we say or are calling self is in there, right?Is in that zone.So if you're in the window of or the zone of self, your state of being is different.Measurably so.So I could work with people just on that and help people start sussing out, okay, what are these states of being, and how are they informed by the past versus really being present in the moment?And what do you want to leverage in terms of states of being when it comes to having particular kinds of conversations with yourself or someone else?Because when I'm doing the work in conflict with partners, I'm not letting people continue to talk about content when they're dysregulated.I'm like, "We need to have enough shift in your being towards- Hmma more regulated state to continue."I'm just calling that more self-led.Mm-hmm.One of the huge advantages of that then also is especially with parts, uh, excuse me, with partners or individuals, is you can start looking at states of being and start divesting your sense of identity from them.Hmm.A lot of what happens and keeps people stuck in intractable patterns is they hear a partner start talking from a part that's very specific, that's holding very specific pain points.Again, we can just say states of being that are triggered and activated.They start saying extreme things, and you think, "Now I know the real truth.Now I know the real you.Oh, this is what's true.This is your re- internal reality that you've been hiding."And so people reduce each other in moments of extreme activation to something that's very 2dimensional.And cling onto that or blend with that or hold them to that versus seeing that as actually an aberration.That's the manifestation of an extreme state or an agitated state and is not really a good measure of someone's feelings about a relationship, which would be very different from a regulated state of being.So it starts to divest this sense of, "This is our personality.This is who we are.""This is what's true for me all and always."We can start to see that this is more to do with our nervous system and its response to relational pain and trauma than actually something inherent or endemic to our own sort of selfhood.So I love that because it levels the playing field, and it gives us access to a way of talking about each other's experiences that doesn't totalize them.ThatI mean, what I'm getting from that is that maybe it, it offers more emotional resilience.So there's less, like, maybe stagnancy in the way you're relating to each other, but you're also not, um, minimizing your partner to, like, an anxious part or an afraid part or a hurt part.Um, and I'm also imagining, you know, if there's that impulseLike, let's say if your partner is in a fight response because they're scared and they're saying something hurtful, and you're like, "Oh, that's how you really feel," maybe there's, like, a, an anxious part of you that's like- Exactly"Are you really in this thing with me?"And then that anxious part can cling on to the fight part, but that's not self in either end of the equation.So it's not really the authentic truth of that relationship.They're just little facets.Exactly.So the parts work framework helps you not get too attached to any fleeting state of being is what I'm getting from you.100%.Yeah.Yeah.Um, so I wanna get more into the, the anatomy of the shame triangle.Yes.Um, and I knowSo Jessica, you came up with this, right?And I think from your, your professional experience but also just your lived experience, and then it was inspired by the drama triangle.So should we start with the drama triangle?Yeah.The drama triangle, um, was created by, uh, Steve Cartman, um, I think it was in the '70s, maybe late '60s.But it's an interpersonal model of human conflict between people, and it's basically the persecutor or the villain and then the victim and the rescuer or the hero.And so most of us, even if we haven't heard of the drama triangle, we immediately go, "Yes, I know that whole victim villain rescuer dynamic."Most movies and entertainment and international affairs are completely all on the drama triangle.Mm-hmm.And so it's a great tool or great map for interpersonal dynamics of realizing I'm caught on the drama triangle, and how do I get off?And so I had been focused on that for a long time, and then in working with people more one-on-one, starting to realizeYou know, they would talk about these obstacles they're hitting."I want this, but I keep sabotaging myself," or, "I want this in my life, this new experience," or, "I wanna have love," or, "I wanna feel better about myself, but I have no self-esteem or self-worth."And then as we would start to unpack it, it wasn't just one part.It would beYou know, and, and then I'd find another part.It was like this Whac-A-Mole of all these inner parts.And at first it seemed like a big tangle and mess that was hard to make sense of.And then finally- Yeahone day in a session, I was like, "Wait a minute, this is the internalized drama triangle," as they were sort of describing, like, there's this inner voice.So the inner persecutor, inner villain is our inner critic, the voice that beats us up and says, "How could you?What's wrong with you?You're a piece of shit.You shouldn't, you should."And it's usually in second person, which is very interesting.Mm.And there's good reason for that that we get into in the book, that this is an internalized voice from the outside world.It doesn't startWe're not born with an inner critic.We experience judgment- Mmand criticism- Mmeither from family or from culture or society, and then we take it on ourselves.But as I'd work with people on the inner critic, I would then be like, "Well, who's this voice talking to?Like, why does it actually have so much power?"And we'd find this really deflated part, the inner victim, which we're calling shame.That is the part that hears the inner critic and in first person says, "Yes, it's true.Whatever you're saying is true.I am fundamentally broken, helpless, hopeless, a piece of crap, unlovable."Like, you name it, fill in the blank.And so that's a pretty extreme dynamic that, again, as I said earlier, like, most people normalize that that's what's happening inside their own head or heart, right, their own system.Mm.Mm-hmm.And sometimes it's even quite invisible.Um, and then our inner rescuers are the parts that leap into action to try to stop the inner critic and not feel shame.And so we call those the escapers, and those can go many ways.We can escape through over-functioning, through perfectionism, through overachieving.We can escape through zoning out, right?Too much drinking, too much weed, too much streaming Too much scrolling, right?I'm gonna avoid.I'm gonna space out, numb out.We can escape through projecting it out, so instead of criticizing myself or feeling my own shame, I'm gonna criticize others, become an outer critic, or we kinda get on the drama triangle or become the villain.And we can escape through certain emotions.Like, it is-- it can be strangely more comfortable to be stuck in anxiety and depression instead of feel our own shame.So a lot of-- So and our escapers are really interesting.They're usually what we're most aware of, is the behaviors in our life or the patterns that are getting us in trouble or burning us out, or they're the ones that get medicated.There's, there's books on all the escapers- Mmand yet a lot of resources aren't making this connection that those are connected to shame and the inner critic.And if we're not working with all 3 Mmright, we can find some traction, but often stall in the healing of those challenges.Mm-hmm.Yeah, there's so many layers here.Mm-hmm.'Cause there's, like, the Western paradigm of everything in isolation- That's rightthat's not looking at the whole picture.But in order to even look at the whole picture and how does everything interact, you kinda have to have the parts of our paradigm- Yeahor perspective.Otherwise, there's no way to kind of, like, untangle it all.It just feels like this is my reality, and it's kind of this little carousel that you just keep circling on, and the, the triang- triangular parts just keep interacting with each other, and you just think it's a personal defect.But then when you can break it down into the parts and then see how those parts interact, then that actually provides you a path forward.Yes.Yeah.It's a model.It's a useful model for getting way more granular for your internal experience, and it's a helpful model for understanding the process of internalization of external influences and the ways that then they morph into voices that we take on and identify with.So I think it's useful on both of those levels for helping us understand, as you say, really complex internal experiences that can just feel, without this model, as if you're being carried away and thereby left with a sense of no agency, no choice, helpless to the looping.And so that's why I think I like this work so much, is fundamentally it's giving people just a felt sense of choice over their own internal experience.You actually have a way to interrupt the patterning that you didn't without the model.Mm-hmm.Um, and Jessica, in the book, you shared an example of how even positive events can trigger- That's righta shame triangle.I loved that example because it might feel kind of counterintuitive, but then once I read it, I was like, "That's so relatable."So there might be obvious things that can trigger the shame triangle.Um, but I would love for you to share that story if you don't mind, just to give- Not at all, yeahlisteners a more tangible feel of, like, what does this look like in action?Right.So I mean, the obvious is something does happen that doesn't feel good, right?You get a funky email, you have a weird exchange with someone, you do get critical feedback, right?Or you do something and you didn't perform as well as you wanted to, and so then you're beating yourself up, you're feeling shame, and then, you know, you're trying to do things to escape it.Um, but in this example that I tell in the book was-- It's funny, I was giving a talk on the drama triangle to a group of peers.It was this 2year program I was in of 40 or 50 people in a, um, socially engaged Buddhist program.and at the very last retreat, we were all presenting s- like, our expertise, you know, doing like a mini conference for each other.And so this is a group of people who love me at this point.Like, we've done, you know, hours and hours of difficult trainings and meditation together, and it's over 2 years.These are people that care about me.Um, I do this presentation.Everyone said I did great.And here I am sitting in the next, like, one of my peer's presentations, and it was just thisIt's like an auto- psychological autoimmune attack-where I'm sitting and trying to listen to someone else give their talk, and it's just like, "Oh, is everyone looking at them and liking it better?"You know, that, that voice starts to run.Like, "Oh, they're laughing more at them.Was I not funny enough?Oh, they're nodding more.Like, I- did I do well at all?Like, were they all just being nice and appeasing me?"You know, "Were they not being honest?"Like, it just starts running.And then starting to feel this collapse, it was very visceral.Like, in my body starting to feel sick with shame, like a shame sickness.Mm.And thinking, I- and then the escape comes in of, like, "I'm gonna leave the retreat.I'm gonna fake that there's a family emergency," or, "I'm gonna fake that I'm actually sick and go to my room."And then that reactivates the inner critic that's like, "Look at you.You're such a piece of shit."You know, like, just the whole thing kept going, and here it was, this moment that I actually did great.Yeah, and it can take over, 'cause that whole imposter syndrome can start to show up.Yeah, it's super relatable, and what really stands out to me is, like, theIt's the triangle is, like, a trap of sorts.Yeah.I'm seeing, like, if you had, like, a ping pong ball going around.It has no escape.Yeah.So you could, you feel, like, the physical symptoms.And then even if you try to, like, maybe take care of yourself or escape, then there's the inner critic, and it ju- it all just kind of- Loops backsnowballs And loops back.Yeah.Yeah.And I think that wasLike, that was a while ago, right?So that was before you had this framework to work through it.It was before.Yeah, I had the drama triangle framework, but I hadn't had this framework.And, you know, thankfully, I was in a Buddhist retreat, so the framework of self-compassion and loving kindness and equanimity were all there, and that helped.But, I mean, I was, like, hungover the next day from that- Mmlevel of self-attack.It was really altering.Mm.Yeah.I think there's also the experience that some people have where, you know, when they were young, they were criticized for being joyful or criticized or attacked for letting happiness in or being, quote-unquote, too enthusiastic, you know?And, and so some people have really had the lived experience that it's not safe to feel some of these positive experiences or positive emotions, and so that's a really painful thing when you've got the internalized version of, right, a past voice from someone in the distant, the distant past, right, now telling you- Don't be too big on yourselfdon't, don't be, don't be too- Or- Right.Don't- Yeahdon't enjoy this too much, right?Always be anticipating the other shoe dropping and- Totallywhat's gonna go wrong next or who's gonna come down on you if you, if you really let yourself feel the, the pleasure joy of something.Um, so yeah, I think that's something that people don't often think about in terms of the shame triangle being an influence there.Yeah.Um, and that brings me to, like, kind of moving forward from the shame triangle.Um, I mean, there's likeIt's very detailed in the book, and you break it down into, like, mind, body, heart, and like, it's so thoroughly addressed, and I appreciate that.But if I were to, like, kind of g- generally summarize- Right, the overview of the transformation.Yeah.But the big component is, like, what wisdom do those parts have?'Cause they're, like, maybe they're smacking in the face verbally or emotionally, but they have a positive intention.Maybe it's just coming out sideways, and that feels like a, a key thread.And you're kind of alluding that to that, Dave, where it's like, well, it, it does serve a purpose.Like, if it wasn't safe in your past, then it is trying to actually keep you safe right now.Yeah, and I think that's the real gold of parts work as it's done in the internal family systems modality is we're really honoring that these parts have been doing something important for us.They kept us safe.They helped us survive painful situations, sometimes for really long periods of time.And so instead of dismissing them or shutting them down or just trying to, quote-unquote, transcend or bypass them, we're actually really working on integrating the value of their intention- Mmwhile updating the strategy.And really, we're wanting the parts to understand it's not your intention that's the problem.It's the strategy you're using.And so can we be creative?Can we be flexible?Can we start to try new things behaviorally, i.e., do new strategies to get these same needs met?And sometimes it's, it's wild.It's wild to see people see parts, like s- from the self perspective, watch parts become aware that they've been trying this thing that isn't working.But for the self to recognize that what they're doing is in service of, right, the holistic selfhood, they're opening and softening in ways that they never have possible because they're being seen, they're being heard- Mm-hmmthey're being validated.And that sense of integration for the individual is so profound, it's so beautiful.Like, that's such a sweet moment to see parts be connected to in this way that's relational and restorative versus adversarial.And then that bridges, right, this possibility towards going from the shame triangle to what we're calling in the book the love triangle, the self-love triangle.Mm-hmm.Right?And this is the transformation that we're really wanting people to have a practical capacity to do.Mm-hmm.Yeah, and it's like, um, to bring it back to the contrast of maybe the holistic way forward that actually works, and then there's that kind of Western paradigm that isolates things, and it's like, oh, is your gallbladder having a problem?Let's just take it out.You know, you're not, you're not gonna tell a part like, "No, there's no place for you here," or- That's right"You're wrong or you're bad," because that's more of the adversarial relationship.The way through is really the, the validation, as you're naming it.Yeah.Which then again leads to integration, right?And so because this is us, so what are we to expect if we're extricating or abandoning or, right, exiting, right, parts of ourselves?Mm.How would that work?Why would that work?Right.It'd be reinforcing- That's rightmore of the triangle.Yeah.Yeah.But I think we're conditioned, as you say, in the West to do that.I think it's just, it's part of some paradigmatic strategies, um, that thankfully, I think, some large percentage of the population is starting to become sensitized to, wake up from, and wanting something different.Mm-hmm.Um, I actually wanna circle back a little bit to something that Jessica mentioned in when you were sharing your story, and you called it the, what is it, like the flare?The autoimmune flare?The autoimmune flare, yeah.When I read that, I was like, oh my God, that is so cathartic because first of all, how many people have autoimmune issues in the United States?Totally.But then, you know, like health, from my perspective, it's all one thing.It's not mental or spiritual or physical.It's all of it at the same time, and it was so cathartic to read.Mm-hmm.I actually have a quote, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna read this.Um- Mm-hmmthe autoimmune shame triangle flareup, much like an autoimmune disorder mistakenly attacks healthy cells, our inner critic turns our own physiological defenses against us.Uh, persistent self-attack increases cortisol, weakens immune function, and is linked to anxiety, depression, and exhaustion.That, I mean, it's like, okay, a part of me knows that, but reading that just kinda blew my mind.Mm-hmm.Um, 'cause I think it's important to really, like, feel the impact of, okay, if you don't have the tools or a framework to move out of this, I think sometimes it's easy to think of your physical symptoms as like, "Oh, I need to see a medical doctor."That's right.But how often is it related to some emotional thing?And in this case, it's like the inner critic is actually, like, creating some sort of a immune flare-up.Inflammation or immune flare-ups in our body, yeah.And it goes both ways.I mean, how many people have been sick with a cold or a flu, and then they, like, are psychologically feel really depressed or even suicidal in that period of time that they're super physically sick?Yeah.Yeah, and I can understand Jessica's inspired by the, to make that metaphor.She's had to live with me for a long time.I'm somebody that says- I didn't wanna speak for you.Yeah.Dave is a grumpy ass.Right.But why- You're rightam I grumpy?He's a, he's a good reason.Yeah, I'm someone that's lived with, you know, severe autoimmune conditions since I was 19.Mm-hmm.And the way that these systems, and that's one of the reasons why we did the mind, body, heart model, is because neuro- you know, a lot of the science that's coming out now is really making it accessible for people to understand the way that these systems that previously we studied in isolation are really interwoven in such an intimate way, you know, that the distinctions we make are really pretty spurious, um, pretty dubious.And so literally the heart has neur- neurons, right?Brain cells, its own brain essentially, right, that can think and generate its own energy versus just being this passive recipient of the brain's activity.And what we know about the gut-brain access now and the way that these 3 create literal physiological centers that are all communicating in these immediate ways.It's like, what are we talking about, right?So there is no distinction, and I think this work comes as part of this growing movement to s- to sort of dissolve these artificial separations between these, you know, what we're calling human experience.Yeah.Yeah, that's interesting.I have had an autoimmune issue since I was 12.Mm.So it's like, it's all I've ever known in a way.Yeah.Mm.And when I finally started to, like, uh, make my life better or my health better is when I started addressing the emotional piece.And that led to a spiritual awakening for me.Yes.Great.Amazing.Yeah.Yeah, it's also- Yeahconnected.Absolutely.Mm-hmm.Um, I wanna ask you a more of a personal question about your relationship dynamic, and I think probably most people find this interesting.Um, I am a retired relationship anarchist.I, I-was polyamorous for 7 years, and now I'm monogamous.But something I really appreciate is just authentic relating.And my personal philosophy is that relationships just cannot be commodified.Mm.So if your relationship is authentic, it's just gonna be unique because diversity is natural.And I think you 2 really embody that, like clearly, um, because you used to be married, and here you are, like, writing a book together.And I'm like, okay, well, that's very countercultural.And I actually have a lot of respect for that because clearly you're relating authentically and consciously to be able to transition your relationship you know, not just have it be some cliché, "Oh, this person's exed out of my life forever."It's so much more nuanced than that.Mm-hmm.So I would love to hear more about, um, like, what roleI, I could imagine the drama triangle coming up 'cause maybe there's a breakup.You're like, "Oh, I'm a victim, and it's, it's this person's fault," or something like that.So I am curious about that part, but I'm also curious if at all did the shame triangle come up, or did it help you actually, like, transition your relationship to what it is now?That's such a great question.When we were still married, um, I think the drama triangle was at play with me in the rescuer role a lot.I don't think we got into the villain so much.Um, in a lot of ways we had a very harmonious relating and didn't fight a lot, which isn't always a good thing.I think in retrospect we're like, "Maybe we should have fought more," you know?But, um, yeah, the drama triangle would play out where it's that was my comfortable role, um, for many reasons.And Dave was like, "You wanna be my rescuer?Great."You know,Parts of me.Parts of you,Mm-hmm.Right.And I don't know if you, Dave, would say they were, you know, parts that felt n- like they were victim, but maybe one down, right?And so maybe- Yeah.I mean, it depends on if we're talking about kind of the bulk of our marriage versus the separation itself.You know- YeahI was hearing the question as kind of focused on how we navigated the separation.Yeah, we didn't yet have the model, the shame triangle yet.Um, but it was definitely a real eye-opening experience for me in terms of becoming aware of really deep attachment wounding and insecure patterning.So when we started to hit rocky points in our relationship that inevitably led to, to us becoming divorced, I was seeing a lot of parts become activated, you know?And so I spent a lot of time actually projecting, uh, the villain onto Jessica, I think.But more internally, um, there was narratives that I was harboring or parts were- Mmharboring, then feeling victim to those kinds of things.You know, I did some pretty significant shamanic work in that time and right after our divorce, and it was really helpful to get in touch with and sit with some of those parts that were holding some of those drama triangle stories and really see for myself like, oh, these are dynamics that I have not been ready to look at yet.And thereby relieve, uh, sort of reveals the influence of shame, for sure.You know, the ways in which I saw myself as not capable in the world dependent or codependent on Jessica to be okay.And this, you know, seeing how that was related to a lot of the dynamics with my mom, and being able to look at that and see after all this personal work that I've done, this idea of myself as being relatively conscious, and falling apart this way in a relationship where both of us are professionals in this arena was so fucking humbling.Um, and so necessary.Mm-hmm.Soimportant.Soimportant.So I feel a lot of gratitude, but those were some of the hardest moments of my life, having to unravel that attachment in the way that it was, and now really have it be the iteration that it is.Um, 'cause where it is is really sweet, and I think it is a very, um, embodied, as you say, example, uh, of an authentic dynamic.Like it- Mm-hmmreally suits us, um, quite nicely, and it doesn't have the sexual or romantic components that it used to, and that's, that's what we needed to be, to be in alignment.The level of partnership that we actually do have.Mm-hmm.Yeah, I think for me there was this, like, few week period where I was really grappling with the shame of divorce, which was surprising to me, 'cause I think actually before that, I was like very pro-divorce.Like, there's no shame in divorce.Fine if other people get divorced.But then it was like my divorce was on the horizon, and suddenly it was, "Oh, I'm gonna be labeled as the child of divorce is divorcing."You know, like, oh, my, my parentLike all of this started to come in, this criticism that definitely wasn't there for other people.But now it was showing up for me, like the societal judgment, and feeling the shame and the heaviness of it.And I think there was actually a conversation that Dave, you and I had, where it was like, if we put the, if I put the shame aside of that and we're just really honest, like what's best for us here?Like what is the best, most conscious, authentic thing for us to do?We both were like, divorce actually feels liberating and actually feels like a move towards like love for each other to do that.And it had this whoa, this is amazing, actually.But yeah, I had to do some shame work to get to thatMm-hmm.Yeah.Can I ask you a question, Forrest?Yeah.Why are you identifying or sort of grounding your relational experience in, in monogamy now?What, what led experientially to, to the shift?Yeah, that.That's a great question.Yeah.Um, f- I mean, it, um, like how long?Long, medium, or short do I wanna tell the storyHow long do we have?Right.Well, yeah, I'll say this.There is so much shame for me in kind of like transitioning to monogamy that- That's, that's part of my curiositylike really shattered my egoRight.Yes.How could I want this?RightYeah.Because for me, I kind of, um, you know, I was in my 20s, so I kind of stumbled intoI think it's easier in your 20s to be open, and when you're queer, when you're trans, you're like, "Well, what else?""What else am I, could I question about my conditioning or-" Right.What else can I deconstruct?Exactly.Yeah, exactly.And so it's like- It's all on the chopping board.Yeaheasy to get into.And actually, the big motivator for me at the time was I secretly got married when I was like 23.Mm.Which I had shame about as well, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, God.I'm not one of those people who has a traditional life and marries young and whatever."But I was dating someone at the time who needed a green card, you know?And I was like, "I love her, so what, what am I to do?"You know?That didn't last long, and so I had so much shame about, "Oh, I'm such an idiot.I got in this.Like, what was I thinking?Like, we shouldn't have gotten married anyway.It was so pressured."And then I kind of took the extreme opposite end of like, "Oh, well that, that wasn't authentic, so let me find the authentic way to relate."Mm-hmm.And so for me, it became deeply philosophical.Like, I kinda fell into it because I think in the queer community there's just more non-monogamy happening.People are just more- Yesyou know, exploring things.So it was easy to connect to.I didn't really go out of my way to connect into it, but once I got plugged in, then I started getting really, like, philosophically into it.I was like, "Oh, this makes sense.It's, like, anti-oppressive, and monogamy upholds capitalism, and you know, the divide and conquer strategy."And, um, after 7 years of doing that, and particularly with relationship anarchy, because from my perspective, I was like, "This is the most authentic way to relate.There's no whatever, barriers."No pretense, right.You just doYeah, exactly.But my, I think I really had to, uh, shatter my ego and realize, like, that it wasn't actually working for me.And it's crazy, 'cause I had focused my entire business around that.My entire clientele was non-monogamous.That was, like, my thing, you know?It was like I got a little TikTok famous talking about non-monogamy.I had like 19,000 followers and, you know, it was, like, really such a big thing to kind of decompose for me to admit that.Um, but it was this big, like, softening with myself and saying, like, you know, I'm a little more introverted and- Mm-hmmlike, I'm, I'm a projector in human design, and- Mm-hmmit feels hard to actually to divide my attention.I think there's just this acceptance of I think this is just my natural way of being, you know?It's like I actually just- I'm f- I'm fine to just invest in one person.And what really changed it for me, it wasn't I just had this ideological awakening.It's that I met someone where I was like, "Oh, my God," like, the level of emotional intimacy here is, like, really meeting some deep needs for me that I wasn't getting met in non-monogamy, you know?Like, I was dating people who were emotionally available, but they were also dating other people and the- there was just, like, so much to juggle.And the philosophy wasn't matching up with the result of what it was giving me, you know?Mm-hmm.So to this day, I don't judge it.I don't think one's better than the other.I used to think non-monogamy was better than monogamy, which is why it was, like, an ego death to be like, "Oh, shit."Yeah."I think actually I just, I like the simplicity of it."As long as, like, there's the depth that I'm looking for, that's all I was ever after.Mm-hmm.You know?Yeah.I really appreciate you sharing your story.It's sweet.It's sweet to hear those facets of your journey, you know?And it aligns with so many different, uh, intersections with, with the work that we've done, that we've- I've experienced personally.There's just a lot of, yeah, beautiful overlap.Yeah.Appreciate- I appreciate the questionit.It's fun to talk about.And my partner and I are planning to do an episode, 'cause she was also non-monogamous for many years and, um, I told her when I met her, I was like, "Listen, I'm, I'm non-monogamous."And she said, "Okay."But then as we went on, we just kept having conversations, you know, about what do we want this to be.And we still every 6 months check in and we say, "How is monogamy working?""Do you still wanna do it?"And that's part of what makes it conscious to me.Yeah.You know, where I'm like, okay, I think you can relate consciously, whether it's monogamy or non-monogamy.Yeah.And so I rebranded my entire business.I was like, okay, we just have to relate consciously.It's not about one over the other.Yeah.Yeah.I love that.And- Yeah.I thinkGo ahead.Yeah.And in my framework, I don't call it monogamy anymore, what you're doing, 'cause it's not a reenactment of the old traditional ownership of each other and traditional roles.I call it conscious exclusivity.Hmm.Yeah.Love that.And you're, you're reevaluating it every 6 months, so it's like- Yeahyeah.Traditional monogamy wouldn't even-consider it.It wouldn't entertain it, yeah.Right.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah, I love, um, the world of relating 'cause it's so expansive.It's, like, endless.Yeah.So it's fun to nerd out about these concepts together.I really appreciate the framework you developed.I'm already, um, like, feeling how it's helping me.Hmm.Um, to be fully honest, like, or just to give a little more detail or context, um, I, like, had a, a autoimmune flareup basically, and it was the first time in 10 years I had 1 Mm-hmmwhich was another ego death.I was like, "I thought I healed this."Yeah.But it, the root was emotional, you know?Yeah.And I was like, oh, and my physical body is responding to my emotions.And that's when I was like, okay, let me do a deep dive, and okay, it's shame.Let me address the freaking emotions.Yes.And then I bought your book, and I just really appreciate the framework.Um, I like how practical it is.As a coach specifically, I, I really appreciate the practicality, like the, the art of changing your patterns.And, um, I think that's what really sets your book apart from maybe other self-help books.And I do appreciate the just how holistic it is, the, the mind, the body, the heart.There's the spirituality without it being weird or woo-woo or something.It's just kind of, uh, organically integrated into the, the book.So thank you for creating such a great resource.Where can people find your book?Yeah.They can find the book in all the places that you type into your phone or computer that you're looking for books.It's all on the websites, but if you go to my website, jessicafern.com, you'll find a page of the books.Yeah.Dave has them on his website, too.Yeah, and you can go to my website, which is restorativerelationship.com.You can also go to our new platform called theazeriteway.com, which is a platform where we're starting to host online immersive experiences, you know- Courses, basicallythat are related, courses that are related- Mm-hmmto this work.So we actually finished this year our first 8week series of the Shame Triangle.So we had a really beautiful first cohort of people diving in and getting a very experiential treatise of this work, uh, which we were really, really happy about, and we're looking forward to hosting more of those on this platform.Um, and you can find us, if you like the candor of our conversation, we oftenWe also just started a new podcast called Ask Jess and Dave.And so we're inviting people to ask us relational questions, and- Just submit your questions- Just submit your question-and we'll tackle themand we'll talk about it.Yeah.And- That's greatit's been really fun.Yeah.So this week, actually, we, we had our first question about polyamory, so weOh, how fun.I definitely wanna check that out.That sounds cool.Yes, send us your questions.Yeah, we'd lo- we'd love to get a question from you, Forrest.Yeah, yeah.And it's, it's anonymous, even though we're saying it here.The questions are kept anonymous.Very cool.Yeah.Very cool.Any, uh, uh, anything else you wanna include before we say goodbye?Just, yeah, we're gonna be offering other live in-person teachings, online things.So yeah, if people just check out our websites, like they'll, they'll get updated when those things come online.Yeah.Yeah, and I can put a link in the description.Great.Thank you.Yeah.Awesome.What a pleasure- Thank you so muchto be with you.Yeah.Yeah, likewise.I appreciate you coming on.What a joy.Yeah, it was good to meet you and dive in.Thanks for your platform and, and for your support of our work.Oh, yeah.It's easy.It just resonates, you know?So it works out.Nice.hope you enjoyed that conversation.For me, I definitely enjoyed just getting to connect with people, um, whose work I've been following for a few years now.I definitely recommend the book, um, Transforming the Shame Triangle, and any of the offerings that they mentioned, I'm gonna link in the description below, so check that out.Something that I have coming up starting in August is the Conscious Couple.This is a 4month course.It's a very gentle, nurturing container for couples who want to continue growing together, and particularly for couples who are not afraid to take a look at their shadows, peel back the layers, and wanna take their shadow work to a deeper level.So what we do is we look at different themes of just common, universal, especially in the United States, just gunky, funky stuff that you inherit that can get in the way of this connection.So regardless of how deep you are into your journey or how new you are, if you like spirituality and shadow work, this is a container that can help you not only transform your patterns, but it's like a very bonding experience that helps you deepen together and continue investing in your relationship.So you can click the link in the description below to learn more, or you can go to consciousrelating.org, click on the Conscious Couple.You do get a 20% discount if you register in June, and you can book a curiosity call with me for free if you just wanna ask me more about it.I do also offer, um, couples coaching, so if you want a more personalized, intimate, private container, you can also book a free curiosity call and see if that could be a good fit for you.Thanks for tuning in, and peace be with you.