[6] the Art of Relating w Nico Ruta
(Podcast Transcript)
Listen on Apple Podcasts
Episode Intro:
Scarcity is a social construct.
hahaha
Do you believe it?
Could you fathom that possibility? What if scarcity wasn't real?
What if it was socially fabricated?
haha
Wouldn't that be a trip?
hahaha
Because abundance is the nature of the universe.
Nobody is managing the ecosystem.
The ecosystem is flowing with itself in interdependent relationships that no single entity could possibly be in control of hahaha
Harmony exists on its own because this is how life is designed. This is the nature of life.
Imperialism – a war paradigm and a domination paradigm – goes against life. It goes against the nature of life, including our human nature.
And so it must create a sense of scarcity in order for it to exist. It fabricates scarcity. Or else it wouldn't even be here.
hahaha
And part of that fabrication are the social constructs of the relationship roles that we are expected to play as boyfriend, as girlfriend, as fiancee, as husband or wife.
And these relationship expectations–
If you are not familiar with the relationship escalator, check out the blog I wrote about it. I have a link in the description. The short of it is that – imperialism creates this formula for our relationships that is linear and productive, and it just keeps escalating, which really is a natural. It's a social construct.
hahaha
So when we cling to safety through contorting ourself into the boxes to fit these algorithms that imperialism has created for our relationships, not only are we not feeling safe – because we're upholding imperialism – but we're also sacrifice, chasing authenticity. We are not made to fit in boxes. Hahaha
We are not linear beings. We're just not.
hahaha
So, what if relationships weren't just this thing where we seek safety?
What if relationships could be an art?
The art of relating?
The art of living?
What if we could surrender into the flow of the waves ebbing and flowing, cresting and crashing and reforming all over again and see where they take us?
What if we could live honestly without compromising our sense of safety and the world?
Smells like abundance to me.
hahaha
Ahh, today I had the pleasure of speaking with a dear beloved, Nico Ruta, who I have had the privilege of witnessing on an evolution of the way they relate to themselves and others step by step, day by day, practice by practice – divesting from imperialist relationship norms, confronting the fear, confronting the jealousy, confronting the scarcity that lives in the body – the residue of the empire that has shaped us and our upbringing.
Ahh.
Hahaha
It's a never ending journey. Don't get me wrong.
haha
But wow. I'm very inspired by Nico and their practices and their journey, and I am just so happy to introduce them to you and for you to get a taste of who they are – and really just this abundance energy that they are swimming in.
Enjoy.
Abundant Futures Intro
Welcome to the Abundant Futures Podcast, where we aid the collective transition from scarcity to abundance by divesting from imperialist relationship norms. I'm your host Forest queer witch certified relationship coach and disciple of love.
May you be filled with hope by expanding your awareness and understanding the actionable steps you can take today for a better tomorrow.
May you feel inspired by the real world examples of what's possible outside of capitalism, imperialism.
May this be in service of collective liberation.
And so it is.
Forest:
Nico, welcome to Abundant Futures podcast. I'm really happy to have you here.
I’m gonna have you introduce yourself shortly, but I do just want to say for the listeners – I want them to know how full circle this moment is. Cuz when we were prepping for this call, I think we established it was like about a year ago we had a phone call where I was like, “Ooh, this conversation could be on my podcast one day.” And you said that like, I don't know when I reached out to you to have this conversation in this moment, you're like, “yeah I’ve always been just like, waiting for this moment to happen.” So thanks for believing in me and thanks for playin’ with me.
hahaha
Nico:
Yeah, I knew it would happen. I knew you were going to do your podcast and that I would be on it. And here we are.
hahaha
Forest:
hahahaha
Nico:
Hahaha
I think it actually is a year later, roughly.
Forest:
Divine timing. I couldn't even plan that out, you know?
hahaha
Nico:
Yeah.
hahahaha
Forest:
Yeah, so go ahead – in your own words – just share whatever you feel like sharing with people who may not know you.
Nico:
My name is Nico Ruta. I use they/them pronouns and I currently live on Tongva land in Long Beach, California.
And I'm feeling called to share that I'm in a season of embodying my artistry. And I – for most of my life, I did not think I was creative. I did not think I was an artist. I was very shy and very disembodied. And it was maybe a few years ago that I decided that I am an artist. And that to be an artist just requires practicing art. And I actually remember the moment I declared I was an artist because I had gone to the park and I did a bunch of drawings and a notebook, and then I went to a cafe and I was co-working with friends. And we like met this person at the cafe and they came up to me and they saw the drawing and they're like, “Oh, you're an artist.”
And I wanted to make excuses of why I was not. And then I remembered the switch in my brain and I just said to them, I was like, “Yes, I am an artist and I'm learning how to claim that”.
And yeah, that was just such a clear moment for me. And then from there on out, I was like, “Oh, if I want to be an artist I actually have to show up to the practices”. And that no one is just inherently good at things like people actually practice their art forms. And so right now I'm feeling really inspired by fashion.
Like, I've really been embracing the fact that I love adornments and fashion. And I think I used to think it was kind of materialistic or like, I didn't want to be into that because I was like, “oh, that's not, you know, aligned with me being in harmony with the earth” and stuff.
And I made a very clear switch recently where I'm like, “actually adornment fashion is ancestral. And it's also not it's not about appearance necessarily, but it actually like affects how we feel.”
Like colors have different energies and like the fabrics we wear affect us. And I noticed, like – I feel like it's like shape shifting. Like I can put on different outfits for different energies and like, embody different things. And so I have a future goal of learning how to sew.
Because as a neurodivergent person, I have a lot of sensory needs and a lot of clothing is actually very uncomfortable to me. So my thing is like, where does cute, fashionable and comfortable meet? And that's what I'm interested in.
And then I also have been drawing recently and just doing it as a therapeutic practice. But I don't really have like joint skills necessarily. Like there's a lot of things I want to draw, but I don't know how to actually draw them.
And recently a friend was looking through my notebook and they were so in love with the drawings. And um, yeah, they looked at my drawings and then maybe a week later they were like, “Nico, I cannot stop thinking about your drawings. And they're like, I would really love a print of this drawing for my birthday.”
Forest:
Awww.
Nico:
And it just kind of occurred to me I was like, “Wait, okay. Like, there's people that are actually into these drawings and I don't even actually have the drawing skills. Like if I actually develop the drawing skills, imagine what I could create.”
So I'm doing a trade. Actually, our first session is today. I have a friend who's an incredible artist illustrator, and so we're going to do a trade with each other where they're going to give me drawing lessons and I'm going to help them organize their art studio.
And so I think a lot of my journey is like being shy – like I was even shy when my friend was looking at the drawings and I was just like, “Oh, they're not that good.” Like, I just think I always try to make excuses.
And I think other people like pointing out my art and like appreciating my art is what is actually giving me the confidence to own it and claim it. And so I don't think it would have been possible unless I have these friends around me that, yeah – they've just been really encouraging me and like seeing that I'm an artist and just having those affirmations shared with me. It's really giving me the confidence. Like I don't think I naturally had the confidence within me, but I'm developing it and yeah.
There's other art practices I aspire to practice, such as music and things, but for now I think the fashion and the design is what's feeling pretty alive.
Yeah.
Forest:
Mmmm.
Haha
Thanks for sharing all that. There's so many like fractals – or maybe like mirrors is a better word – between what you shared and then like also the way that you relate to other beings.
I mean, just this theme of embodiment in general – even in our check in that came up and it seems to me like it's really important to you as a practice, staying embodied. I'm curious what you see as the relationship between embodiment and your art practice.
Nico:
Oh, yeah. Thank you for this question. Um…
For me, the art practice is embodiment. The way I aspire to practice my artistry is to get into flow states where I'm just so consumed with the practice and the art that it just becomes like – like time kind of falls away. And I'm just so present with the practice. But a lot of my art has to do with the body.
Um, because I also do practice dance and movement and like singing and music. Those are all art forms, but they're deeply embodied. Like, they're like healing to the body. And I think for me, it's. I don't really want to practice art forms that feel disembodied. Like the whole point for me is to practice these things to feel more embodied. And embodiment to me is not about feeling good necessarily. It's just about being like with what is. And sometimes that doesn't feel good. And there's so many ways I try to escape from being with what is sometimes. Like when it doesn't feel good, you know, sometimes I don't always want to be with it.
Um, I and sometimes it does feel really good. It feels very, like, joyful and present and blissful. But it's not always like that. And yeah, I think for me it's like I just want to be fully I want to be fully here for my life and, like, fully present to my life, regardless of if it feels good or not. And that's the practice.
Yeah.
Forest:
Mmm hahaha
Nico:
Hahaha
Forest:
Ahhhh.
Just breathing that in.
Nico:
Ahhhh.
Yeah.
Forest:
That reminds me of a song I recently learned in song circle. I can't remember who wrote this, but it goes like this:
“You wanna get up to the joy
You gotta go down deep
So go down, go down, go down.
“You wanna get up to the joy
You gotta go down deep
So go down, go down, go down.”
And then there's other layers and rounds and stuff. And it's just like ughhh – a really euphoric experience. I love melodies and heart. And yeah, it's just like ughhh.
hahaha
But yeah, it's really –
it just reminds me of like, honest living. Like, living honestly, whether it's in your relationship with yourself or your relationship with others – though, I think it's kind of one in the same.
If you're unwilling to be with the uncomfortable things in your human experience, then how on Earth could you move through tension in a relationship dynamic? Or how could you move through jealousy in a relationship dynamic? Those things maybe we don't enjoy feeling so much.
Hahahaha
Nico:
Hahaha
Forest:
It's getting real deep.
hahaha
Nico:
We're going in.
hahahaha
Forest:
Well you have Pisces sun and I have Pisces moon. So.
hahaha
Nico:
Oh yeah, I knew it was gonna go deep quick.
hahaha
Forest:
hahahahaha
What can you do?
hahaha
Nico:
Yes, just go with it.
hahaha
Forest:
We're flowin’.
hahaha
I was gonna ask a question, but was there something that you wanted to say first?
Nico:
No.
I’m here for the question.
Forest:
Okay.
Bringing it back to, like, the mirrors or like the fractals – thinking about, you know, like all of the parts of our lives just as a reflection of the whole of our lives. So – I mean, I definitely can see just by knowing you, the relationship between the way you practice art in the way you practice relating.
I don't know if I have a clear question. I'm just kind of weaving together haha
I feel like there are reflections in the ways that your art practice informs your relationship practice and how your relationship practice informs your art practice. Is there anything that you want to share on that?
Nico:
Hmmm.
How my art practice informs my relationship practice and how my relationship practice informs my art practice…
Well, I was actually just telling a friend yesterday that my art practices are relational.
Like, I know there's some people, it's like they go into a studio 4 hours by themselves and they just like, create all these things.
I have found that, yes, there is definitely times I'm just like, I'm in my zone by myself doing my thing, creating. But a lot of the art I create is with others, or even if it's not with others, it's inspired by others. So for example, my friend telling me they really liked my drawings. I then was like, “Oh, I actually like doing this and other people like that I do this as well.”
And I feel like I want to create art that like resonates with people. And even like today I'm going to go to my friend's art school and they're going to give me a drawing lesson. I like doing things collaboratively. I mean, I consider my life an art practice, like the way that I have found out that I actually need body doubling for a lot of things. And like a lot of the ways I hang out with people are actually very intentional body doubling. Like we meet up because we're both either going to do the same thing together and support each other or we're doing something separate but in the same room. And I just am a very communal person.
And like I also am pursuing modeling as a career, and I love doing photoshoots with people. And when I like collaborate – I recently collaborated on a photo shoot with some friends and it was just so much fun and filled me up. And like we each had our role and we were just communally like – it's like we had a plan, but then it was so emergent in the moment.
And I found that – especially as a neurodivergent person – I'm actually very exhausted by like neuro – kind of like the standard ways that we're taught to relate where you just like, go to a thing and you just stand around and talk to each other. And don't get me wrong – I love conversations, I really do. But I'm really learning that there's a lot of ways to relate to people that actually are not just conversation.
Yeah, like the photoshoot, for example – like creating this like world that we were then photographing and like telling a story and it was so relational. We were all working together, but we weren’t just like sitting around and talking. We were like creating a story together.
And I think that I – I mean, it goes back to the theme of embodiment where me just sitting around all day talking to people through conversation, I can start to feel very disembodied because I do need to like, move my body and express.
So I think I'm feeling so much more satisfied with my relationships now because I'm learning that I like co-creating with people.
Forest:
Mmm.
Yeah,
I do wanna circle back with like, a technical definition of body doubling just in case somebody doesn't understand what that is. I think you kind of implied by examples, but I'll just explicitly say – at least my understanding is just needing somebody in the room, you know, like just sharing the space with someone in order to, like, move forward with whatever it is that you want to do. It doesn't even have to be productive, but it's just like, you know, it helps to have somebody nearby sometimes just to move through life, I guess.
Forest:
Does that feel accurate?
Nico:
Yeah. Thank you for that.
Forest:
Ahhh.
Yeah.
I think of – well, this concept of flow is really standing out to me that you named in your art practice. And then you named emergence in the photoshoot – the way like you all are were playing roles. But then there is also space for emergence, like it just unfolded into whatever it needed to. There was no director saying, “No, you do this, you do this like.”
Haha
Things just come together. It's kind of like an ecosystem. An ecosystem doesn't need like a general chief in charge or something haha
You know, that's a very imperialist idea. Like, “here's the way we're going to do things. It goes by X, Y, Z and happens in a linear fashion.”
So when I'm thinking about just the way that we're programmed around romantic relationships, because part of the imperialist agenda is to have us prioritize romantic sexual relationships first and foremost.
And part of that design is like, okay, you're going to center your entire life around this person. You're going to meet all your needs and desires by this person – Or at least like most of them. That's the intention or the fantasy.
And if you deviate from the script – even slightly – your relationship feels threatened. Like, there's just so much scarcity and it's such a tiny little box to be shoved into. Maybe not a lot of room for flow haha or emergence.
I mean, I've gotten to witness you – I mean, we've known each other for like a few years now. I can remember exactly when we met, but I've witnessed you go through big changes over time.
Particularly like de-centering from this one relationship where you were very much like a couple. And then it seems like your relationship dynamics just really changed after that. Not that it's a linear path, but you've really been practicing haha these concepts – life as art, not life as like the script that we've inherited. You know, it's like, “this is the way we relate.” But you're just kind of embodying. You're listening to what your body is saying, like, “Oh, this is what feels flowy or authentic or honest. And so this is the thing I'm going to do, even if it's unscripted.”
Could you share a little bit about what that experience has been like to divest from this like social script that most of us inherit – that definitely you've inherited – and what it's felt like to connect in ways outside of that script?
Nico:
Mmmm.
Wow. Such a big haha big question
hahahaha
Forest:
Hahaha
Yeah, I’m in a habit of asking too big questions haha so I’m working on that.
hahahaha
They could be massive sometimes.
Hahaha
Forest:
I love it.
hahaha
Yeah. I mean, it's been a journey and you have definitely been a witness to it.
More so even than – I mean, a lot of people have been witnesses to it. But I think me and you both have this special interest around relationships. So we talk about these things a lot.
And yeah, once again, I just love the way you touch on that theme of embodiment, because the way I feel in my body now versus the way I felt, you know, a year ago or even five years ago in my relationships is totally different.
And like the energetics, now that I feel in my relationships is a lot more spaciousness and openness. And I wouldn't say that's all the time. Like, I definitely I definitely still struggle a lot with certain relationship things right now.
But like in the past, I felt so much like constriction and tension in my body around a lot of relationships – like particularly romantic ones.
And I don't know how many years ago it was when I was still practicing monogamy.
Like maybe…I honestly don't even know. But I was in this, like, monogamous relationship. We were living together. I had never lived with a partner before. And I just remember there came a point where I started to feel really – well the relationship just… I don't think we were meant to be together, but separate from that – like the actual monogamy felt really restrictive.
Like I just started to notice I was feeling attraction to other people and then I was feeling really guilty about it and really bad. And then I didn't know any polyamorous people really. I had maybe like one friend I knew that was polyamorous. And then I started finding people on the Internet that were practicing polyamory and openly talking about it. And that's what really did it for me. I was like, “Wait, there's like there’s queer and trans people out there living polyamory.”
And like, it was just a huge awakening for me because I didn't even know that was a possibility for me. At all. Like, I just really thought I was like, Monogamy is for me.
ha
Yeah, and so I basically told my partner at the time, like, “I want to pursue this.”
And they weren't really interested in that, but we decided to split up anyways because it just – overall the relationship – like we just weren't aligned.
But then I like got into a partnership with someone where it was polyamorous, but we definitely were still practicing it in a more monogamous way. And so I had these progressions where I was like, “okay, I'm like fully monogamous” and then realizing, “Oh, I'm actually polyamorous.”
And then getting into like what was technically polyamory, but not at the same time was not.
Because I learned very quickly, like, it's one thing to say, “I want to do polyamory and it's another thing for the body and the nervous system to actually be prepared for that experience.”
Like it seems cute. It seems very like, you know, flowers and rainbows. And then I got into it and I was like, “Oh, my nervous system is not prepared. We do not have the tools.”
hahaha
Forest:
Hahahahaha
Yeah.
Nico:
And actually, that was like a pivotal moment finding you – like meeting you through the Internet and joining your – at the time when you did the Love and Liberation Network – and like joining your Zoom calls where we were – it was like a non-monogamous support group – that was actually huge for me. I really needed that because I was out here like, “technically, I'm in a polyamorous relationship,” but I'm not – I'm too scared to even practice it. Like I felt too scared to even go on dates with other people or like pursue other things. And my body was just very constricted around it and I did not feel free in it. And it just felt very stressful.
And I actually didn't know there's so many versions of polyamory and I had no clue how I wanted to do it.
So what happened is I got with this partner who they have been practicing polyamory for a while, but their version was like – more having like a primary partner and then other people are secondary. So practicing a more like hierarchical form of polyamory. And for me, I didn't know what I wanted, so I just was like, “okay, cool, this works for me.” But then as time went on and I started learning more about polyamory and I started like realizing, you know, how I actually want to practice it, I was like, “Actually, I don't align with primary and secondary. I want to practice non hierarchical.”
And me and that partner did not align on that. And that was like one of the many reasons why we decided to not be partners anymore. And that was a huge moment for me to separate from them because finally I felt like I actually had the spaciousness to explore and discover like what is my version of polyamory for me? Not like just doing what other people are doing or like how other people want to do it, but actually finding a way that genuinely works for me and feeling comfortable in that.
And I think what I've realized through my journey is polyamory for me is not just about romance, it's actually and the term ecosystem is really something I got from you, where it's like seeing my life and our relationships as an ecosystem and – cuz don’t get me wrong – I love romance and like I love having a romance in my life and that's actually a need of mine. But instead of having it be like at the top, just it's just a part of the ecosystem.
And I, you know, I have a couple people that I consider platonic partners, and I love that. Like, I love having people in my life where it's like we are platonic, but we, you know, we want to call each other partners.
And, you know, I think it's been a lot of unlearning for me because I still have a lot of moments where I have to catch myself, where I realize like, oh, I am prioritizing my romance more than other things.
So I feel like it's really a journey for me. It's not just like, “Oh, I see everyone as an ecosystem and I'm just doing it.” I'm actually having to actively check myself and like be with the process and not like – actually in my ecosystem it's not just humans either. Like it is plants and the land and the elements and the animals and like that's been a huge process of like unlearning this like human centric world and that we are actually not the only beings on this planet.
And that like…yeah.
And even my ecosystem – like my art practices, are my ecosystem. Like, I don't want my whole life to be revolved around like, you know, seeing people and hanging out with people, but instead, like also prioritizing, like, the things that really make me come alive.
And I notice when I'm doing that – when I'm really prioritizing the things that make me come alive, it actually is so beneficial to my relationships because then I show up to those relationships really full. And I definitely know the times that I show up to my relationships like depleted it tends to lead to more conflict or more things like that.
Yeah, So I'll stop there for now.
Forest:
Oooh.
Beautiful. Beautiful.
Ahhh.
Yeah. My heart is just really melting at the expansiveness, the spaciousness. Like, energetically that like these examples carry. Just, like, zooming out to your art practice, to plants and nonhuman life. The land…like… Ooof!
Yeah. And I feel like that paradigm shift where it's less couples centric, like super duper zoomed in – your whole life is revolving around one person. So if that one person, God forbid, dies in a car accident or, you know what I mean, like goes on vacation for a week to visit their mom in a different state or whatever the thing is, right? It's like – it can be so distressing haha to feel like the center of your life is like, absent.
Versus this interdependence and the balance of living in harmony with the ecosystem. Of investing your time and your energy into things that bring you life and how that ripples over – it like overflows out into the ecosystem and like everybody benefits from that. There's so much abundance.
hahaha
Ahhhh.
Nico:
Yeah.
And I actually remember, like, when I was in my early twenties, my first romantic relationship that happened to me where my partner at the time went out of town and my nervous system freaked out because I actually was investing all of my time and energy into them. And now, like, you know, if a partner went out of town, I – yes, I miss them. Absolutely. But I'm okay because I have all of these relationships and all of these interests and things I'm doing. I have a full life and I notice, like, it's so much more fulfilling to have a full life than just make the life about one person. And I can see so clearly, like the difference between my 20 year old self and my, you know, now 33 year old self.
Forest:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmmm. Yeah, I'm thinking I'm traveling way back in time. Back when I was a little baby without a beard. Not a little baby, but before I started testosterone.
Nico:
Hahahaha Oh, okay.
Forest:
Hahaha
I had a baby face. Yeah. I think I was like 23. Yeah, I was like 23. And I was like, quote unquote single, which is a social construct. That's a whole different conversation.
Nico:
Hahaha Yeah. That’s a whole rabbit hole we can go down hahaha
Forest:
Hahaha
I had a complete emotional breakdown, like a melt down. And I wasn't even dating anyone, but I had planned a date with someone I had been talking to on a dating app. And then for whatever reason – like some emergency came up and they weren't available to meet, so it wasn't like they were rejecting me. Or they were like, “I don't want to date you.” They're just like, “Oh, actually this time doesn't work for me.” And I had a full on meltdown.
Like it was so hard for me to be with myself back in that time and – looking at my dating patterns, my relationship really suffered when I was centering like all of my energy around one other person, and then I wasn't able to be embodied in myself. It was hard for me to be in my experience. And any alone time I had, I would just be like smoking hella cannabis, like way too much, honestly.
So haha bringing it back to this theme of embodiment – and I love what you mentioned about this concept of how when there doesn't feel like there's spaciousness in the relationship dynamic, how you can feel that in your body. Like there's tension in your body and maybe it's a mirror into if there's not spaciousness within the dynamic, maybe there's not space to be with yourself.
And we could even look at this example – this is a very relatable example. I think it goes beyond just you, but it's like feeling guilty for feeling attracted to other people. And particularly – let's say hypothetically, someone's been in a monogamous marriage for like 20 years and then they start having a crush on someone, they could very – they could be very incentivized to shove down those feelings and even deny their own feelings because it might threaten their sense of safety. Cuz their safety is all bundled up with this one other person and it's reliant on the sexual dynamic.
So it goes really deep and I loved what you said about it's way easier to navigate conflict when there's that spaciousness and that sense of embodiment, when you're feeling connected to yourself and there's not so much tension in your body.
Oooooh.
Just weaving together different threads that I'm seeing hahaha
Nico:
I love it.
Okay. I'm going to pause and use the bathroom.
Forest:
Okay, good
Nico:
brb.
Forest:
I’m gonna do the same.
*Bathroom Break*
Forest:
It's a good balance between planning and emergence. You're like “at some point I’m gonna need a bathroom break” and then it's like “the time is now.”
It just happens when it happens.
Actually, I find that to be a really great example about embodiment practice haha
like I’m thinking, particularly in your growth journey, if you compare yourself to who you used to be like five or six years ago – I don't even know who you were back then, and I'm just throwing a number out there.
haha
Yeah. I wonder, like, how our prep for this call might have been different. I find it really poetic that we're here on the call talking about embodiment in art and in relationships and the way that we prepared for this call is you being like, “Hey, I drink some coffee and I'm gonna need to pee in the middle of the talk at some point, so I'm just going to have to get up and go.”
And I was like, “That's great. Yeah, Thanks for letting me know. Thanks. Take for taking care of yourself.”
Haha
Or even like when you were naming stretching – you were like, “Yeah, I might need to like, move around and, and, you know, like move my body a little bit.” I have a lot of respect for that.
Nico:
Thank you.
Yeah, a lot of people quite often point out to me that they appreciate that I – yeah, I'll stop to take care of my body. I'll be like, “I need food now. I need water now.”
And to me, I don't really notice that I'm doing that. I'm just doing it. And then when people have reflected to me, I'm like, “Oh, I guess that is – that is embodiment.”
But I do wanna name that like that has not always been the case. Like there – for most of my life like I won't speak up for my needs. I wouldn't get water when I needed it and…
Yeah. So I think that's been a practice. That's been a relationship practice, like learning how to identify what I need, name what I need and have relationships where we take care of our bodies together.
Forest:
Yessss.
Mmmmm.
Nico:
Like we don't deny our body our needs just because we're hanging out. I mean, the amount of times in the past that I've, like, hung out with people that I don't really know that well and just like I've had to pee for 30 minutes and haven't said anything and I'm like, I don't want to relate like that anymore. I want to relate in a way that honors our bodies. Like I don't want to have to recover from being with people.
Forest:
Ooooooh.
Nico:
Like, I want to feel like that time with people is nourishing to the body.
Forest:
Mmmm.
Mmmmm!
Yeah, I'm giggling over because I, like, totally relate to that.
hahaha I'm like, “Yeah, story of my life” – much less these days, but it's still an ongoing practice.
Nico:
Oh, yeah.
Forest:
Yeah. And it's I think it's – not I think I know that's part of my practice. It's like being like, oh, I notice I'm diluting down what I'm knowing by saying “I think” when actually I know. But I know that people who are socialized as women are conditioned this way. Like it's way easier for a dude to be like, “peace out, I just need to pee right now.” Like, they're not even going to talk about it probably. They’re just gonna go take care of themselves.
Nico:
That's very true. Yeah.
Forest:
And I love how – Have you ever heard this word possibility model? Like instead of role model?
When I was hearing you talk about like you didn't even know polyamory was an option. Or maybe you just had one example, but there wasn't too many, like possibility models, like modeling what life or what relationships could be like. Versus a role model is like being in a very constricted, rigid shape that – you know, a role is like something that's been set out. And within imperialism like usually we inherit it from this kind of like war culture.
So. Possibility model.
And it sounds like the way that you have been inspired and touched by even just seeing possibilities like what is out there – Like, “Oh, maybe I'll try something different.” And it wasn't this. Like, “I'm going to try it this way.” It was like, “I don't even know what I'm trying out. I'm just going to see where it takes me.”
And you've landed in a place where you feel like you connect more honestly with people. And maybe there's like a deeper level of satisfaction there. And from this example you're giving about embodiment, it sounds like the more space you create for yourself publicly – like in front of people – they're like, “Oh, maybe I need to stretch too, maybe I need to stop and go the bathroom too,” or whatever. So it's very like contagious. It's very expansive. So much abundance.
Nico:
Mhmm.
It is. It gives other people permission to, yeah, to take care of their body as well and…
Yeah, I love that term possibility model and you've been my possibility model for relationship anarchy because I didn't even know about relationship anarchy until I met you. And you know, just this concept of letting relationships emerge and go in the direction they want to go versus like trying to fit them into what we want them to be and control them.
Forest:
Whew
Nico:
And that is something I am very much still working through and it could be a lifelong process. But I know that I have a lot of tendencies to control because I'm trying to get my needs met.
But as you have taught me and I have learned from lived experience, like, controlling others is actually not the way to get our needs met.
Um, so yeah, you're definitely my possibility model for relationship anarchy.
Yeah, so thank you.
hahaha
Forest:
Awww.
hahaha
I'm, like, really delighted to know that. I feel think it's not every day that we have an opportunity to know the impact that we have. And sometimes when I'm posting videos out into the ether, like, I have no idea what’s happening on the other side hahaha
Nico:
Hahahaha
Yeah, exactly.
Hahaha
Forest:
Like, here's here's some thoughts, you know.
Nico:
Yeah, exactly. It's nice. Yeah. It's nice to actually get feedback around how we're impacting people. It's nice. Yeah.
Forest:
Yeah. Yeah.
Awww.
Ahhhh.
So I want to focus in on something that you mentioned earlier about how hahaha maybe in your mind it could be all rainbows and butterflies, right?. Like, I know I don't want to do whatever the thing I was doing. I don't want to suppress my needs or my feelings or contort myself in order to relate to people. I don't want to have to disconnect from myself to hang out or maybe even to sustain a relationship.
But then, of course, the body is like hahahaha having its literal own experience.
Nico:
Hahahhaa
Forest:
Like we are just humble spirits that come to visit Earth. We're like, “Woohoo! Let's learn some lessons on this little planet.”
And then we just, like, come into these bodies – and these bodies, you know, like they're designed in their own way, you know? So hahaha it's really old technology if you think about it – the animal body.
Even that impulse to control others, to feel a sense of safety. It's so – it's such the animal body – it's not even like us on a conscious level. It's just the animal body being like, “I'm surviving right now and this is how I'm going to do it. This is how I know how to do it.”
So I would love to zoom in on that a little bit because I think there's a lot that folks listening could benefit from just by hearing about what are some things, some practices and some learnings that you've developed along this years long journey. You continue to be on around catching your animal body up to your mind, you know what I mean?
hahaha
Nico:
Oh, yeah.
hahahaha
Getting those to be in alignment is hahaha – it's a process haha
Forest:
hahahaha
Yeah, that's the art of living. It's like a dance that happens, you know? It's like a constant relationship relating to this animal body.
I have a couple examples that come to mind – things that you've shared with me previously. Like, I think art is certainly one of those things. And then you also mentioned the future self meditation, like connecting with your future selves.
Do you wanna share any of those or something else?
Nico:
Well, for context for this led me through a future self meditation recently where I envisioned my future self ten years from now and haha they were definitely wearing flowy linens. And right now I'm wearing like polyester, so hahaha
But yeah, my future self was just very – you know, and I still actually like, feel a lot of moments of my future self now too. So I want to name that – but my future self, they're there just like in their body and they're confident and they're like in their life. They're showing up to their life and they are like playing the guitar in these flowy linens that the linens that I sewed and made. And they're just like – yeah, they're just like feeling themselves. And they relate to others often, but they do it in a way where they're still like in their body and they're not abandoning themselves.
And, yeah.
I think in terms of relating, I know where I want to be. Like I know, you know, I'm a relationship anarchist that sees all my relationships as part of the ecosystem.
And, you know, we're all giving – like I'm giving people space to be themselves. Like, people are giving me space to be me. And there's a lot of like spaciousness and joy in relating because I'm like letting people just like be them and not trying to control them.
So I like know where I want to be and I definitely have a lot of moments where I'm like, “Oh, okay, I'm living it, I'm living it.”
But like there are a lot of moments where I catch myself where I'm like, “Oh, I'm trying to control right now.”
I’m like, very anxious because – yeah, I experience a lot of anxiety in relating to people sometimes. And identified – I had an experience recently where I was like, “Oh wow, a lot of this anxiety really is because I am trying to force something to go a certain way and it's not going that way. And so I'm like over here trying to like hold on tight and resist and quite honestly creating my own suffering.”
And it just feels like – honestly, sometimes it just feels like my child self that didn't get their needs met is like coming to the surface and they're trying to get their needs met in a way that, you know, might feel safe to the child self – like controlling. But then when I kind of come out of that and realize like, “okay, no, let's like embody our future self and where we want to be.” And like, and I kind of release that control, I start to feel like, “okay, like there's a lot of spaciousness in these relationships.”
So I often alternate a lot between like for, like spaciousness and relating and feeling like control and anxiety and like constriction.
and yeah.
Forest:
Yeah, definitely.
It's definitely a nonlinear process.
And also time isn't linear, you know, it's not even circular. It's like spherical hahaha
It's like multidimensional.
hahaha
Nico:
Yeah.
Forest:
Ahhh.
And this practice of connecting with your future self – channeling your future self.
Ahhhh.
It's so powerful because – you know that inner child – their experience is so valid, you know? And your present self’s experience is so valid – like your inner ecosystem, everything that's happening all at once – it's also valid.
And sometimes it can feel easier to not have to do all the parenting on your own, but to call in even multiple future selves. You know, like the one that's like 20 years older, you know, like they just get wiser with age, really. As long as we're practicing on this path, which you definitely are. So I think it's safe to say hahaha they're pretty reliable support people.
Ahhhh.
Yeah. I like to call this like a time traveling practice. And I think through an imperialist lens, one could argue, “Oh, that's not real because it's in your head.” But really, you know, haha what we imagine creates our reality.
So, you know, like, if you imagine a fight that you might have with someone, your whole body’s gonna tense up versus if you recall a happy memory you had like a year ago, you might start giggling to yourself out loud. So the power of the mind when you can connect with the image and the feeling and even just the words that your future self has for you – talk about the animal body, right? Like it's signaling to the animal body that it actually can relax a little bit. It just brings in some balance. So it's not just the child's self running the show of the body sensations.
Nico:
Ahhh.
Yes, I love that.
And I did want to bring in, like, the theme of art and the art practice, because I have found that art practices have been deeply healing for me in terms of like healing my anxiety and kind of child self in relationships.
Because honestly, when I'm like really showing up to these creative things, I do feel like I'm just generally in more of a flow and I have more confidence.
And when I have more confidence, like I actually am showing up a lot better in my relationships. It's the times when I'm not really like practicing my art or like not really feeling good about myself – that's when like these child triggers are more present. And I think the art practices – they help me come back to myself. And I think that's a lot of what happens when I have these like anxious attachment spirals – I realize I'm like, “Oh, I'm losing myself right now.”
And so I think my like forever art practice is – and embodiment practice – is coming home to myself. And I think that that's a never ending process because, like, there's just a lot of times I might, you know, lose myself for a second and then it's like, “Ok, let's just return home.”
Like it's okay if we stray off sometimes, but like always, remember to come back.
Forest:
Mmmm.
Ooooooh.
Ahhh.
I wanna leave the listeners with something because I can imagine many people can relate to this. It's so relatable what you're sharing. And I find it personally very inspiring – these practices you engage with.
Ahhhh.
Kind of circling back to a previous thread in your intro around maybe we could call it imposter syndrome to summarize it around like, “Oh yeah, I'm not an artist because maybe I don't get paid for it” or “maybe whatever – I don't dedicate my life to it” or “I'm not in art school” or whatever the thing is, you know.
I mean, talking about breaking out of a box hahaha and coming home to yourself.
I feel like a big part of coming home to yourself – like yourself in general – is breaking the chains of that imperialist conditioning that we then internalize as part of our oppression. It's like, “Oh, well, capitalism (which is part of imperialism) says that I'm not an artist unless I get paid for it or unless it looks this commodified way, unless it looks like Picasso or some shit.”
Right? Like, I don't know haha
Nico:
Yeah.
Forest:
And then if you – I don't know – maybe if there's, like, shame or some scarcity around the way that you relate to art, which for you is a coming home practice, then imperialism is interfering with you coming home to yourself.
And we could look at this like a social – like a societal scale – like, it's a social phenomenon within imperialism where it just kind of interferes with our relationships with ourself and then with others. So for folks who are listening, I hope they can feel inspired by maybe just embracing imperfection.
I felt really inspired by what you said about how, like, maybe you needed to hear that other people were enjoying your art for you to like kind of lean into it a bit more and be more public about. And that you enjoy it, but also other people enjoy it too.
So I want to encourage folks who might feel kind of shy about making art – whether it's poetry or like painting or drawing or whatever it is – just to really focus on what feels good and not be too attached to the outcome. Because this is a resiliency practice, really, you know?
Cuz that transformation doesn't happen overnight. You know, imperialism lives in the body. The nervous system is like, “I'm not safe unless I'm controlling and owning my partner.” And that's totally like imperialism living in the body. So if we're practicing liberation and if it starts with our self, let us not get lost in these imperialist narratives that tell us that we're not worthy enough of expressing ourselves and indulging in creativity if it's not perfect. Because perfection doesn't exist for creativity. It's just such an expansive energy, you know?
Nico:
Yeah.
And honestly, if I can practice art, anyone can because I truly was so shy for a lot of my life. Like not doing any art. Like – yeah, when I was younger I did some art – but there was a long period of life where I was not doing art. And over the past few years, just like actually practicing different art forms, I do see actually how like you can build the skill of art
Like, it's like even the fact I'm teaching drawing lessons is huge because for me, like, I never thought I could really draw or paint, but then I was like, “Oh, there's actually like techniques and like things you can actually learn like if you want to develop that skill.”
I feel like art is actually really expansive. Like I think in the past I was like, “Oh, art is, you know, drawing and painting.”
Art is not just drawing and painting. Art is like, like I work a lot with medicinal plants and that is an art form for me. Cooking is an art form.
And so, like, even for me, when I started working with plants, like I didn't know anything about plants, like I was so just like, “okay, I'm, I'm curious about plants, but I don't know at all how to work with them.”
And, you know, I've been doing that for like over ten years. And I'm definitely not like, you know, as experienced in herbalism as like an elder. But I have a lot more knowledge and more like embodiment around plants than I had ten years ago. But that's only because I show up to the practice of, you know, building relationship with them.
So I feel like, yeah, like you're saying it's not about being perfect and it's not always about creating art that people are even going to see. Like no one's going to see – like when an artist, when a musician puts out an album, a lot of times some albums can be like years of work. We didn't see any of that. We just saw the album. We didn't see like all the voice lessons they took or like all the hours that they practice to create that album. Like, they didn't just come out of the womb like playing the guitar, you know? Like they learned how to play the guitar.
So I think that capitalism and imperialism – it basically teaches us like that art is not worthy to pursue because it's not going to make us money.
And that it teaches us that only people that are “professional” – whatever that means – like professional singers on a stage should be singing.
And it's like, no, I love that for people who perform their music on stage. But like, singing is deeply healing. It's literally creating like healing vibrations in our body.
And like, ancestrally, like we no matter what, like no matter what culture you come from, like singing is traditionally a part of daily living. It's not a thing you just go on a stage to perform.
Forest:
Hahahaha
Nico:
It's literally like life. Like singing and music is life. And I feel like that's what like colonization and capitalism has literally sucked that out where they turn it into a commodity where, like, you can only be singing if you're on stage.
And it's like, no, like singing is just something that we should honestly all be doing because it's like – like one of my teachers, she in the past, she told me she was like, “if you have a voice, you have a built in instrument.”
Everyone who has a voice has an instrument that is very underutilized that a lot of people don't use because we think like, Oh, we have to sound good or whatever. And it's like, no. Like singing can be also like a relational communal practice.
Forest:
Mhmmm.
Mhmmm.
Mmmmmm.
Yeah.
Singing has been so medicinal for me personally.
And now that I'm in psychic school, I'm like, “Oh, yeah, it's literally, like, clearing out the throat chakra.” hahaha like it just seems so obvious to me.
Nico:
Hahhaa
Yeah.
hahaha
Forest:
I’m like, This is one of our energy centers hahaha you know?
And I believe – I'm not like well studied (I'm not studied at all) in Chinese medicine – but I feel like I've heard this where maybe it's not only Chinese medicine, but just like Eastern medicine practices where if there's a thyroid problem, which happens near the throat, sometimes, it could be connected to not speaking your truth.
Or like if someone's in an abusive relationship and maybe they're not like – literally not allowed to speak because they might experience violence. Like if they can't express authentically, then they could start developing health issues there.
Nico:
Mhmm
Forest:
So, you know, if we're carrying that shame and we're not giving ourself permission to just like be with whatever our voice sounds like or be with whatever our drawing looks like, then we're really not creating that spaciousness for authentic relating. It's like staying inside of a trap that we didn't even create, but we're just kind of stuck inside of it. So.
Nico:
Yeah.
Forest:
I think the takeaway here, at least for me, is like giving yourself permission to live. Just like give yourself permission to be in a body, you know?
Nico:
Ahhhhh
Forest:
Like shit's not going be perfect because that's not supposed to be how it goes anyways.
hahaha
Nico:
Yeahhh that permission.
And it's like – and I think for me, the only way I have even been able to allow myself more permission is by surrounding myself with people that also give me that permission.
Because in the past I definitely was surrounded by people who were like, more judgmental and like, had a lot to say. Like, I didn't feel like I could really exist as I am. And I think the only way I've been able to open up more is like, yeah, being around the people where we mutually agree. We're like, let's just let ourselves like be in process. Like we don't need to…
Yeah, like it's okay to be in process. We are constantly in process and it's that like capitalist lie that we have to be perfect before we can, you know, do anything or say anything. And it’s like – what does perfection even mean? That's just a… like false… That's false. Like we're never going to achieve perfection.
Forest:
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm!
I wanna add a layer here – that in monogamous dynamics, the format itself encourages us to really develop a deep sense of comfort around being seen in our authenticity with one person.
And then it actually creates not a lot of space, because it's like you're sense of freedom emotionally, just to like exist and be honest and express – it's in the small bubble of like your home.
Versus when you're centering interdependence with the ecosystem – it doesn't mean you can't have sex with people and be close to people – it just means that you're diversifying who you're expressing intimacy with. And I think of intimacy not necessarily in a sexual way, although it could be, but it's like a mutual state of vulnerability. That's something I learned from a somatic practitioner that I really like. His name is Luis Mojica.
Ahhh.
So at least in my experience, oh my gosh – there's this example where I lived in this Buddhist meditation center for a year in Berkeley. And I had like 12 housemates and they're all lovely humans, but we had a karaoke night. So I just remember being like, “I want to participate so badly in my body. Just feel so much shame about being witnessed,” like singing out loud in front of people.
And I was really just like flirting with the paradigm shift. But my body was like, “it's not safe. Don't do it. Don't do it.”
You know? That old technology. I was like “we need to update. Let’s just do it a little bit.”
hahahaha “I think it's going to be okay.”
Nico:
hahahaha
Forest:
But for me, it's been so incredibly healing to actually expand my practices of vulnerability and authenticity outside of just one single person that I'm investing in. Do you know what I mean?
Nico:
I definitely know what you mean. Yes.
Yeah, and it can be – I've definitely fallen to that many times where I'm only feeling comfortable expressing myself vulnerably with like one, two or three people.
Because, you know, I'm someone that – it takes me a while to kind of get comfortable with people.
So sometimes I fall into this trap of like, “Oh, I have these few people that I've known for a while and I feel comfortable with them.”
So it's like easier to hang out with them because I have to be like even more vulnerable to other people. So I have to, like, catch myself – be like, okay. It's okay to like – it's okay to also feel like awkward around people or like to feel like I don't feel – Yeah, there's a lot of times I'm like, Yeah, I know that I'm not fully expressing myself right now, and I feel kind of awkward and like even just being with that feeling and being like…
It feels vulnerable to be like that – to feel like awkward or like uncomfortable sometimes. But I think I'm learning, like to let myself just feel like, feel that and like, move through it versus like, running from that.
Because if I let myself just like, be with the discomfort of, like, getting to know people, then what happens is really beautiful. I start to build a lot more intimacy with them if I just let myself go through the initial like, okay, maybe I'm a little shy right now.
Or like…
I mean, even my partner, like when I went on the first date with them, they reflected to me that I was like really shy hahaha
And now I'm really not that shy with them. So it's just like interesting.
Yeah, it's just interesting to notice, like, those things.
Forest:
Yeah.
And there's no right or wrong way to be relating in community too. What I want to offer people is like – community could be an opportunity to heal if you so choose that path.
But there's like so many ways to heal from stuff, so…
I think what you spoke to earlier is also a really important factor. Like maybe before, uh, let's see – a past self where maybe you weren't expressing so openly and authentically, you didn't feel like you had the space to do so in your friend groups. It's almost like a mirror of your inside, on the outside, you know?
Nico:
Mhmmm hahaha
Forest:
Like our relationships are always reflecting who we are. Always.
You know, we're such interdependent beings. Like, we always impact each other and influence each other, even if we're not aware of it. So, it's that transition. And it can feel awkward – and maybe even sometimes lonely at first – when you're like, “okay, I actually don't feel like this is the space that feels safe enough for me to, like, grow and like, just give myself permission to live freely without judging the experience.”
And so once you do find the safe people or the spaces to do that, it just – it's so abundant. It just kind of reverberates back and forth. It's like the space gives you permission, and then when you do it, you give other people permission, and then the permission just keeps expanding.
Hahaha
Nico:
Mmhmmm.
hahaha
Forest:
So it's okay. Like, you know, we're all in different places and different paths and it looks different for everyone, but it is definitely a possibility to experience healing in community, and it can also feel fucking terrifying.
haha
Nico:
Truly.
Like, I know that I have trauma from a lot of relationships, but like now I feel like I've healed so much through relating with people and that we're not – we really cannot heal in isolation.
Forest:
Mhmmm.
Nico:
It's just not going to happen. And so I think, yeah, align ourselves to be vulnerable and like really be intimate with people. It's like there's so much healing in that.
Forest:
hahaha
Yeah, I feel like because I grew up in Missouri, so, like, that was not the environment for that hahaha
Nico:
haha
Yeah, totally.
No.
hahaha
Forest:
To say the least. I was, like, doubly closeted for many years.
Ahhh. Yeah.
It took me 24 to be like, okay, actually, I'm trans, took me 24 years and then. The same year, I was like, I have to leave here. I can't exist here anymore. Like, it just doesn't feel good.
Nico:
No.
Forest:
And then I moved to California, where I felt hella free.
Um…
Why was I sharing that? Hmm?
Wait, what did you say before that?
Nico:
Umm…
Yeah, like allowing ourselves to really, like, be intimate with people.
Or I think I was just talking about how relationships can be a source of healing.
hahaha
Forest:
I think I really lost my train of thought on that one.
hahahaha
Nico:
hahaha
Okay.
haha
Forest:
Embracing the imperfection.
hahaha
Nico:
hahaha
Yeah.
hahaha
Forest:
Sometimes my mind, just like is like the waves of the ocean, and then it's like riding the waves and it's graceful and it's smooth, and then it just drops off.
And I’m like “Oh, and now I'm in the desert.”
Hahahaha
Nico:
Hahaha I love it
Forest:
Oh goodness hahahaha
Umm...
Let’s start wrapping up here. Is there anything that you wanted to share that you didn't touch on?
Nico:
Hmmm…no.
I feel complete.
Forest:
Me, too. Minus that wave that got lost in the ocean. But I'm just, like, releasing it, so.
hahaha
Nico:
Yeah haha
Can't contain it into boxes.
Forest:
Yeah, truly haha
Aww. Well, yeah. Thanks for – I think it does – I know it requires a level of courage and vulnerability to, like, share about your personal experiences very publicly on a podcast, for example. So just thanks for being willing haha to play with me in this very public way. To me, honestly, it feels like a form of exhibitionism.
Haha
To bring it into the kink world.
Nico:
Hahaha Yes.
Forest:
Hahaha I’m like “Yeah. Let's talk about our emotional growth. And our relational growth and let's do it out loud.”
Hahaha
Nico:
Hahaha
Once again. Pisces sun. Pisces moon.
Forest:
Thanks for being a exhibitionist about your inner world. That takes a lot of courage. And I hope – and I feel like I know – I could just feel that people benefit from you as a possibility model.
Like, we're all possibility models. The poetic thing about it is that it doesn't look one way. It looks infinite ways. So we're like the stars in the sky. There's no wrong way to be. We're just constantly impacting each other to certain degrees. Thanks for shining a light in our conversation today.
Nico:
Mmmm.
Thank you so much for asking me to do this.
This is my first time ever being recorded for a podcast. I knew my first podcast experience – I knew it would be great with you just because I know we have really good conversations anyways.
So, yeah, I'm thankful for this opportunity and it feels it feels good to share vulnerably because yeah – like you’re saying like I could be a possibility model for someone.
And I'mactually trying to practice sharing my inner world more with people because I find that a lot of times people actually do relate. And if I'm just like holding it to myself and like it often kind of turns into shame. And so I'm learning to just, yeah, be more open about things and. It encourages other people to be open about things too.
Forest:
Mhmm.
It is a gift.
And I see it being directly related to peace on earth. Because the more permission we can give ourselves and each other, and particularly the way that permission amplifies when we're in interdependent relationships, you know, the more we're liberating ourselves from these imperialist norms and the more we divest from the ways that imperialism lives in our hearts and our bodies and our minds, the more it's falling as a world order.
So, you know, it's already on its way out. But if we want to actively engage in the process and bring peace to Earth – like we can do it. It's as simple as making art or like channeling your future self or taking your risk and like, you know, being seen authentically, even if it's in front of one person.
It's just about exploring the growth edge, even if it's like 5%, you know?
It's all part of the liberatory practice. So, I hope that can be a motivation, you know, just scaling it out. It's so much bigger than just ourselves, really.
Nico:
Mhmm.
Links
Go Down Deep by Laurence Cole (song)
What is the Relationship Escalator? (blog)
