[3] Cycles of Hope & Despair w Melissa Fox
Forest: When is the last time that you celebrated a break up? I know it sounds kind of funny, right? Because we're living in an imperialist paradigm and the programming we receive is to understand successful relationships, quote unquote, as ones that last forever, particularly the sexual romantic ones. And this incentivizes us to force misalignments in order to strive for this imperialist definition of relationship success. And what happens when we force misalignments creates friction, creates suffering, and on the extreme side, it could even incentivize us to stay in an abusive relationship much longer than we need to, or really just any relationship longer than we need to.
My guest today, that was not their circumstance was wasn't that extreme.
But I'm just so inspired by their journey and I'm excited to have them on to share their experience with you. There is so much abundance in accepting misalignments, particularly when there is emotional chemistry, romantic chemistry, and especially sexual chemistry, because at least for me, I can really get hooked on sexual chemistry. And then I don't know, it's like logic goes out the window.
And definitely in my history I have definitely stayed way too long in relationships that just were not working. They weren't hitting the spot for me and I was kind of suffering. I was sacrificing my desires or my needs in order to cling to the fantasy of what I wanted the relationship to be or what I could see the potential of the relationship could develop into. But in the meanwhile, as long as I was in the scarcity paradigm of forcing the misalignments, trying to force them into alignment, it just wasn't going to work. I was going against the flow and I was resisting what was. I was living in the fantasy more than reality. And in doing so, I was really holding on tight to this idea of I can make this relationship work. And in the process I was leaking so much energy all the energy that could have been going to just things that bring me life, things that inspire me, that fuel me, that ignite my spirit. And so there's so much abundance to just accept like, Hey, I love you. And we have beautiful chemistry. And this just isn't aligned in the ways that I'm needing it. So I'm going to let go of this very compassionately and lovingly because I have faith in the future that if I let go of the misalignments, I'm creating space for the things that are aligned. And when we're living in alignment and we're trusting in the flow of the universe, we are inviting in ease. And of course not to say there's not grief in the process. To love is to grieve. To grieve is to love. You know? So part of acceptance and letting go is not resisting the grief.
Oftentimes the grief might feel too painful. And we're like, No, I don't want to accept this relationship is not working. And so I don't want to grieve. It's ending. I'm just going to cling on as tight as I can and kind of suffer in the process just kind of spinning your wheels. You're not getting what you want, and in the meanwhile, you're blocking the ease from actually flowing into your life. So it takes so much courage and so much clarity, really. It takes a deep relationship with oneself to be honest with oneself. Am I living in a fantasy or can I accept that maybe this relationship isn't aligned enough for me to continue moving forward?
There's so much more to be said on this. I actually wrote an article about this. I will link it in the description of this podcast episode. I do read half of it during the episode with my guest, Melissa. They will introduce themselves shortly.
So if you're interested in going deeper, it's pretty rich and concise and just dripping in abundance. So
yeah, may this paradigm shift inspire you and may Melissa's story inspire you.
Enjoy.
Melissa. Welcome to Abundant Futures podcast. I am so, so, so excited to have you on. For many reasons.
Maybe I'll go ahead and say the reasons and then you can introduce yourself.
Melissa: Get out the scroll. No, I’m kidding.
F: Actually, I have a literal document over here.
I think we've talked about this, but
definitely you have planted a seed in me around hosting a podcast, so it just feels like a really full circle that I'm, like, here hosting a podcast, and then I'm having you on as a guest. Like, it's just so delightful.
M: What else do you want? no. hahahaha
F: hahahaha, Yeah. Who's coaching who now?
Let's see. Maybe I'll go ahead and say to like, how we met and how long we've known each other, and then we'll have you introduce yourself. So Melissa and I have been working together for almost three years. We're just a few months shy from the three year mark, which is pretty amazing.
You know, normally when people work with me…well, I'll say this…
This is the only person I've ever worked with so consistently for such a long amount of time. And for me, it's been a fucking delight. Like, because to witness how committed you are to this process and to growth and to collective liberation, particularly because it would be different if it wasn't in the context of like a greater social justice kind of vibe, you know? It's like, yeah, I'm just a growth junkie. Like, I like to hoard wealth. No.
M: hahaha could you imagine?
F: Right. Yeah. So it's just been so delightful for me to have this like relationship that we've pretty much developed. Having these weekly calls for almost three years in a row and just to see the ways that you grow and change and
really transform, like moving closer and closer towards your values and moving through fears and oh, it has been beautiful. So
maybe I'll leave it there for now and then, however you would like to introduce yourself. Go ahead.
M: So thank you. And I love I don't think you clicked in my head the name of your podcast that Abundant Futures.
I guess, like that's what this work has been all about with you.
Yeah. So my name's Melissa. My burlesque name is Vixon Riot, and then I see currently my name or Foxy. When I work in TV and festivals, I am 47, turning 48 this year and I live in Meanjin Brisbane, in Australia on the Unceded lands of the Turrbal and the Yugara people. And it is important to me to start our session by acknowledging the traditional stewards of this land and their elders past, present and future.
So it's a really important part of my work to be led by an on site Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander particularly and LGBTI for the brother boy and sister girls. For our collective liberation, but in particular to acknowledge the harms that have been done by them through criminalization, that continue to be done.
I am queer and my pronouns are they/them. I identify as genderqueer. I have two daughters 16 and 19, and I work in the community services sector, supporting organisations to enable and empower their participants to help shape services and transform systems. And I perform burlesque, and I've also recently started doing sex work. And all of that really aligns with my volunteer work in LGBTQ plus spaces and currently president of the Queensland Council for LGBTI Health. And I'm very much through my journey around polyamory and relationship anarchy/solo polyamory has really helped me to transform my attachment patterns and the harmony and joyfulness of my relationships, all my relationships as a parent and leader as a partner.
F: Whew, that’s a hell of an introduction.
M: hahaha yea it’s busy bein’ me.
F: I really respect just all the projects that you're involved in. There's a lot of diversity and a lot of like just different skill required. I've deep respect. To be honest with you, when you first reached out and I was reading your intake form, I was like a little bit intimidated. I was like, Oh my God, this person sounds like really cool.
M: hahahah What?
F: hahaha You’re like doing all this really meaningful activist work. And I was like, okay, let's do it.
M: Well, I'm so. It's just so interesting that you say that because I feel like you've been a guide to — what's the word — like maximize the impact that I can have in the world. You know? Yeah, I want to use the privilege that I have, the passion that I have to truly have an impact on the world.
And that involves all that stuff that you talked about, you know, looking at my patterns over the coming years, creating community. Oh, the other thing as well — I'm sure there's other things I forgot to mention — that I’m sober. That's been part of this journey and I am really passionate about creating spaces for queer and particularly trans and non-binary folk to have safe spaces, to build communities and experience them, and liberation for kink and BDSM.
F: beautiful. If I lived in Australia, I would definitely be at those spaces hahaha
M: hahahha
F: Oh goodness, I already feel like there's a million directions I want to go into, but I'm telling myself to focus so…
M: I know.
F: Maybe let's just start simply. If you don't mind sharing just how you got into solo polyamory or relationship anarchy as a framework.
I don't recall —well, I don't remember if that was like your intention when we first started working together, it felt like at the very least, there is an evolution that happened where you really started feeling passionate about that.
M: Yeah, yeah. So I think I'm just thinking back to the timeframe. So August 2021 was when we started working together and I've had a really pretty challenging like 18 months to two years before that in my polyamory journey and involving the pandemic, which was not a great time
to be an extroverted person that loved performing. And and, you know, I was involved in lots of health advocacy and and being in the world and influencing change and then being at the centre of the response here in Queensland and doing it from my office at home. And it was really, really stressful.
And my partner at the time had just found a new partner and I wasn't dating anyone and that was really tricky during the pandemic. So I think I had, you know, tried to do that, I guess mostly on my own during that time and just knew I really needed some support. And it really was through unpacking mono-normativity and some, yeah, not so great dynamics, some enmeshment and insecurities or those kinds of things that I think naturally I moved towards solo polyamory and, you know, about a year later it was the natural journey. A lot of that was through the work with you and thanks to Tik Tok that I found you.
F: hahaha Yeah we'll see how long it lasts in the US at least.
I love that.
I kinda wanna read the thing I wrote. I might be jumping ahead of myself.
Well, maybe I'll say this — When you first reached out, you were in a part of your cycle that we've both identified together, that there's ebbs and flows. There's like flowing and you're feeling hopeful, like life is good and some many possibilities for dating and romance, and especially in the framework of solo polyamory or relationship anarchy, because we know that's way less mainstream. So there are real like societal environmental limitations there, so. And then the flip side of that cycle is dipping into that feeling of hopelessness and maybe like despair — could be kind of an intense word — But, you know, just like the flip side of the when you're feeling up and you're feeling full of possibilities, it's just like the dam. Actually, I don't know about this.
M: Yeah. Scarcity versus abundance.
F: Yeah.
I don't know where to go. Like, we could deepen in on these cycles of hope and hopelessness. Yeah, actually, maybe. Let's go there first, and then I want to read this little snippet that I wrote.
Yeah.
So how would you describe these cycles? I mean, you've been studying them for a while. We've been studying them, together, your cycles now for like almost three years. So through your observations what is like predictable about the cycles of hope and then hopelessness?
M: God this feels like one of our sessions.
F: hahahahha
M: At the end, just like “and next week come back and share what you've reflected on.
Would you like to?”
It’s always with consent.
Yes, give me the hard stuff.
So what is predictable, I still kind of feel like a little bit like a goldfish brain. I still haven't quite hooked on to that. Oh, it's predictable. And oh, this is what happens. I think I'm getting that. And maybe that's because I don't have that observer mind yet. But when I think about that question — yeah, it is definitely that experience of living in a city where — yes, there is a queer polyamorous community, but it's not huge either. You know a lot of this already.
Yea, scarcity is kind of a reality. And that's where I'm at at the moment of a kind of a place of acceptance around.
And at the same time, the pieces that I know I have learned bring me back to that place of a greater satisfaction with my life, you know, still being in the past of relationship. And so I really know to bring my focus back to myself and, okay, how am I taking care of my own stability? Like your stability wheel. I still use it as a compass or a touch point to come back to.
What do you mean it started with morning stretches and that transforms, ya know?
hahaha it's witchcraft.
But, yeah. That, you know, how I feel good about myself. And then I have higher standards of what I'll accept into my life is that really comes from that place of self-care and making choices for myself.
And also structuring my life in a way that there are abundant sources of love. You know,—physical touch, whether that's sexual or platonic. You know, those buzzy sources of good hormones from dancing, community building, doing things for other people. You know, all of that is in my control when I'm in these cycles of hopelessness and scarcity mindset.
And, thirdly, compassion for myself that actually we're not meant to be these individual isolated beings that are meant to be okay with being on. I mean, that's such a capitalist mindset. Some things it's like it is valid to want connection and partnership and pleasure.
And being kind and myself and making space to grieve and just really.
F: mmm, Yeah. whew.
Yeah. Wow. That's like a little time capsule for me. I feel like you've grown so much in that realm. Like, I almost forgot that we had even, like, crossed that bridge together because I remember and it's like three years ago, so it's a while ago, but
there would often be just you like, asking me for, like, validation almost. It's like, is it okay to have these desires? And just a lot of like the bringing that compassion and like validating yourself. It's okay to like, want love. That's like totally normal. It's a human thing. It's how we’re designed.
M: Yeah. And it's okay to have standards of like how you want to be treated. It's okay to want consistent communication and that kind of thing. I think you know, when you're socialized as a woman. Yeah. You’re told so often that you're expecting too much.
Yeah.
F: Oh, goodness. Yeah.
haha I was about to give another example about ways that people socialized as women, just it feels like too negative that don't want to go there because, you know, I could talk for hours about patriarchy.
So, let’s just not right now hahaha.
There are definitely barriers for people who are socialized women when it comes to just validating ourselves, that's for sure. Yeah. And definitely, like as time has progressed and you've been moving through these cycles with a lot of courage,
we may have talked about this before, but from my perspective it takes so much courage to have hope. Cuz it requires heart. It just does. And you know, sometimes we are too hurt to open our hearts to the possibility of hope. So it just feels safer to keep ourselves closed and protect our wounds.
M: whew. Yeah, I'm very much still in that at the moment. Six weeks post, like two breakups. Yeah.
F: Yeah. Well, yeah, when you put it that way.
M: Yeah, and that's okay. That's okay.
F: Well, this kind of brings it back to the cycles, you know, like, I'm kind of laughing a little bit because I know, like, one of, like, maybe like a breakthrough session we had was
this epiphany around, “Oh, shit. It's a pattern. It's going to continue happening. Even if I'm like, like, tending to it. Still going to repeat:
M: How rude.
I thought I was cured. I thought I had the graduation certificate. Rude.
hahahaha
F; Right? Right. Not that the you're, like, stuck in them for life, but what I find often in this type of work where we're just like observing patterns and playing with patterns, often there's this sense of like alleviation when you just become aware of a pattern.
You're like, Oh, thank God. Now I can see it and I'll look out for it and I'll never do it again.
hahaha
M: hahaha
F: But in reality it's like, Well.
I mean, this has been a pattern for how many years? Like it's going to keep happening. It's just, it's like this automatic thing that continues happening. So the practice is to observe when it's happening and that creates the choice point to shake things up a little bit.
And I've over the years, I've really seen you shake things up to where we're having completely different conversations around maybe similar themes, like when the hopelessness comes in. And from my observations, you've been able to come out of those dips a lot quicker than you have historically.
M: So and I think that's one of the things that I so appreciate from you on a week to week basis. But then there's opportunities where, you know, you get to zoom out and then you're a mirror to me. Yeah, that celebration, validation, identifying patterns and growth.
Like I find it a lot harder to do that on my own, you know, in my own journaling. And that's one of the things and I'm so grateful to you for.
F: Mmhmm
M: And then, that's motivating to keep doing the work and doing the work between our sessions.
We’re gonna take this. The downfall of capitalism hahaha.
No. hahaha I mean, yes, but.
F: But yes hahahhahaha
Yeah.
Yeah. For me, it feels really special to be in the intimacy of celebrating one another just because it's totally not a norm within the Empire.
The Empire, it's like, let's only focus on what's not going well. And then if things are going well, let's just call that normal or something.
M: Yeah.
And on to the next thing that we've got to fix.
F: Right Right.
So it takes a lot of patience, a lot of compassion, a lot of love just to like, slow down and celebrate. And at least for me, it feels really intimate because, I don't know, maybe it's not something I could do. Just anybody, like, show my insides to someone and they'd be like, Wow, well done. You know, like it's kind of intimate.
M: Yeah, Yeah.
And then to and then you're like, “Okay, I've got something for you. I've got a question. Are you ready?” And I'm like, “Give it to me. You know, I like to, like really take it as far as we can take it. I love having the courage.
Yeah.
And that you love that too. And that, like, I feel the trust of like, yeah, I can handle this hot stuff. Like, you know, Forest thinks I can.
I can do it.
F: Hell yea.
We’ve definitely built up the rapport.
M: Yeah. And it's much nicer than this TikTok I saw yesterday that I have been drawing on. You know, all tools are helpful, but it was saying if you're having trouble being motivated to do something, imagine that your enemies or haters like don't want you to.
hahahha and so like that’s been great.
But, in general, I don't really want spite as my motivation.
I prefer it the motivations that we draw on hahaha
F: hahahaha yea like from a place of abundance.
M: Oh yeah. That too.
F: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And from like an energetic, like quantum physics level when we're indulging in that energy of celebration, which is really just validating yourself. But then with the added bonus of, like, I can be a witness for you too, in like sprinkling some of my validation.
Not from a place of like, I'm grading you or you're going to be punished if it's wrong, but it's just like, Wow, I see you and I'm really inspired by what you're doing. You know, like so, so much abundance and that being a fuel for motivation. And when we're tapping into that energy, that in itself it's like the energy of life. That is the thing that's going to keep fueling the tank, especially when you hit those rocks in the road and you dip into the the hopelessness after two break ups in a row, you know, like that's just life.
M: Yeah. And I know there's wisdom in there as well. Like, that's what I've learned through removing what doesn't serve me like there is wisdom in the wanting to crawl under a rock and again.
Like there are kernels of wisdom and yeah, that resonates for my journey of sobriety, like removing alcohol so that I could be the best, you know, leader and parent and partner and
yeah, I think it's just constantly removing what doesn't serve me and being courageous to do what does
F: mmhmmm
M: That's really the Serenity Prayer, I think really encapsulates that. Yeah.
F: Would you mind saying it for people who don’t know it?
M: Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the context is —I think that I always get a bit confused about the rules of anonymity.
But I grew up with a close family member and so I grew up with AA and Al-anon as the family religion, I say, and so I still draw on the principles and steps and everything.
But yeah, the Serenity prayer is “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference”
F: Aaaaah.
M: I think that really encapsulates it.
F: Uh, I love that prayer. It's so deeply resonant and so, like, simple and concise.
M: Yeah, and liberating.
F: So there's like, so many layers that we can add into this theme of like the cycles of hope and hopelessness.
But I'm feeling like, actually I do wanna read this little snippet that I wrote like a little over a year ago, if you don't mind, and then maybe we could circle back to the layers because it's all the same theme. So it’ll just be a different angle.
You open to that?
M: Yeah. Yes, please. hahaha
F: hahaha Yes, please. Love that.
Okay, so this happened a little over a year ago that I — wait, was it two years? Who knows? It's been a while since I wrote this and I actually never published it. I had the intention to, but this happens often in my work flow where I just like, don't publish things when I write them.
But anyways, it was after a session that Melissa and I had gotten off of and I was just beaming. Like I could feel every cell in my body, just like dancing. I felt so inspired by your journey, Melissa.
Because I've seen you through the ups and the downs and, you know, as the cycles repeat in the ways that you show up differently. And this was like such a breakthrough moment that I just wrote about it.
So you're just going to have to bask in the — witnessing me celebrating you as I read this thing I wrote a little over a year ago.
hahaha
M: hahaha
All right.
hahaha
F: All right.
hahaha
Okay.
So it starts like this: Have you ever celebrated a breakup? I don't mean the kind where you shit talk the other person, like, “Oh, that asshole doesn't deserve me. Good riddance.”
I mean, the kind where you continue to be on the other person's team wanting and hoping the best for them. The kind where an ending of a chapter doesn't mean that you're now against each other. Normally I write about my personal experience on this blog, but I'm feeling so inspired by one of my clients right now that I can't not write about it. After meeting every week for 14 plus months in a row, I've seen this person move through romantic despair and hopelessness, wondering if true love is really even possible within such a traumatized world. I've seen her end a relationship of eight years after cultivating a deeper — Oh, I'm using the wrong pronouns.
M: That's all right. They would have been my pronouns.
F: Yeah, I'll update these — note to self.
I've seen them in the relationship of eight years after cultivating a deeper attunement to their body in simply following their bodies feedback.
It didn't feel good to be with that guy, so why were they letting their energy leak like that?
And now, after having regained hope and then falling deeply and passionately in love with a woman, she found herself in awe of what is possible — in love. Ugh — they found themselves in, of what is possible in love and relationships.
And today, after multiple sessions of expressing fear around leaving the honeymoon phase, “what if the relationship won't last forever?”
They proudly announced to me that they have ended things with the very person who reignited a spark inside of them that had felt dormant for so long. In fact, they were celebrating.
To break up with someone doesn't mean you stop loving them. It doesn’t mean you turn from allies to enemies. It simply means the relationship is going through a transition.
Within a capitalist heteronormative society, we often feel shame around break ups or even self-doubt.
Does this mean I'm a failure at love?
The relationship escalator turns love into a linear, outcome-oriented mission. But my client has effectively divested from the relationship escalator after weeks and weeks of ongoing commitment to shadow work, to unlearning internalized systems of oppression, and to prioritizing secure attachment with themself first and foremost.
So that's like halfway through it. The rest I just kinda wanna summarize, instead of reading word for word.
Um, and it's really just like why there's so much to celebrate in there.
There's so much abundance in breaking up with someone who is misaligned.
Do you want to speak more to this?
M: I feel like I needed all of that as a reminder so much. Yeah, I mean that like just getting from the grieving, you know, the self judgment. Yeah, I really. I need to remember everything that you just said.
Yeah. It's so, so alive for me. And, yeah, I think the abundance that I truly love now is like being in my room, you know, not in misaligned romantic relationships and just this life being so full of possibilities and full of peace. You know, peace in my belly. Peace in my body. Rest. Ease. Yeah. And, and that's really true abundance and.
Yeah.
I feel like you've summarized it so beautifully.
F: Mmmm.
So I wrote down seven bullet points about things to celebrate. It's kind of a lot like. We don't have to zoom in that much. Since you brought up the body sensations, I feel drawn towards that because I know for you that's been a huge part of just developing secure your attachment with yourself.
I mean, that's ultimately what led to breaking up with this person you were together with for eight years. You just started listening to your body and you're like, “Oh my God, my body is actually telling me I don't like to be around this person.”
M: Yeah, yeah. And even my last connection, if I'm honest. Like it was some very strong physical sensations that I had in myself. And I was like, Ohh. Ohhh! Okay.
Yeah.
F: Yeah.
It's a very powerful practice, just slowing down and cultivating that relationship with the body because, of course, the Empire does not want us to do that.
It's not in the Empire's best interest because we're conditioned to override ourselves in order to produce, produce, produce.
So it's such a revolutionary practice just to slow down and tune in. It's kind of like coming home to yourself.
It's like, Oh, what do you have to say to me? I'm listening.
You know?
And then like, maybe it guides you in a direction where you're like, I didn't know I was going to break up with this person. I thought we were going to be together forever.
But that's the abundance of it. You're not holding on to things that are misaligned, and maybe it's the holding on to things that are misaligned that creates that sense of hopelessness, too.
You know?
It's like, Oh, why does this feel so frustrating to be with this person? or Why aren't I feeling fulfilled the way I want to?
But then as long as your time and your energy is going towards the misalignments, then you might be missing out on more things that are aligned.
M: Completely.
Yea, completely, completely.
And you'll love tonight. That's what I love about the work that we do. It just filters out. I was with my mom and my oldest daughter yesterday. And, as you know, my mom has early Alzheimer's and was a social worker. So for years and was sharing it with my daughter and I that she has this friend doing this favor for her.
But actually she doesn't enjoy the activity and yeah, it was like expressing real difficulty in knowing what to do and how to communicate that, which sort of shocked me because I'm like, I'm like being, you know, supporting people to have a voice your whole life, you know?
And that's how you parented me and the girls. And, yea, she said, you know, it's different with yourself. And but in the end, like, my wisdom was, I see how you feel in your body when you get the phone call to do the activity and when you do and just, you know, you can't help but, in — I think — in my experience, you know, have the courage to say what needs to be said and do whatever you need to do to move out of that. It’s so much more powerful than getting in your head. That's obviously not been working.
F: Ooof.
Right.
I do also just want to normalize for people who are listening that like it's such a profound act of courage to actually listen to your body. Not only hear your body, but like, listen.
It's like, okay, I hear you and I'm going to take the appropriate action. And at least for me, that does not happen overnight. It's usually a process where I'm listening and then I'm grieving.
I'm like, But I don't want to break up with this person.
But I don't want to move. I don't want to X, Y, Z, or whatever the thing is that feels misaligned and there's like a small process of maybe like a little bit of resistance, maybe some grief, maybe some fear.
I mean, definitely some fear because you can't have courage without fear. Courage is just saying yes to the fear and not being stopped by it.
M: hahaha oh my god [mind explosion].
That’s amazing.
F: So it's definitely a practice and it's not this overnight, like, oh, I listen to my body and I my life is radically different.
M: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a period of, “Oh, I wish I could be in denial and forget that I noticed that in my body.”
Yeah, Yeah.
F: hahaha right.
M: And, and I think for me another piece that's made that easier is maybe realizing it may never be like 100%, you know, feeling positive. Do you know what I mean?
It's like that is probably because, you know, we've chosen connections or in situations because we have mindfully chosen them and they've been good experiences. Like, of course, there's things that we want to continue on. And so it's may never be a 100% “yes, I need to go in this direction.”
F: Mhmm.
So I feel like this overlaps with this format of solo polyamory or relationship anarchy. I feel like there's a lot of overlap between the two, but they are different.
It might be worth just distinguishing how they're different. Before we go into things.
I could speak to this.
Did you want to speak to this?
M: Yeah, yeah.
Um. Like, yeah, I love— because I've been inspired by your embodiment of them. Yes. And would love to hear you.
F: Oh, that's sweet. Okay,
We inspire each other, you and I. It's very sparkly relationship.
M: Mhmmm.
F: Yeah.
So I'll say this too.
Probably if you ask somebody else, they’ll probably give you a different answer, too. So, you know, I don't claim to be like the expert on this. This is just my lived experience and my perspective.
But I understand relationship anarchy as just non-hierarchical ways of relating, particularly de-centering the couple. Because at least with imperialism, we're conditioned to really center the couple.
We're encouraged to kind of merge our sense of self with another person. And so the way that kind of trickles over into the non-monogamous world is — there's usually a hierarchy where the couple has like veto power or they just have — they hold more power over other relationships in the dynamic.
So in many ways it could be a barrier to intimacy. It could be a barrier to authenticity. When I say intimacy, I mean physical, emotional, spiritual, you know, just this sense of vulnerability. Because as long as there's a power dynamic, there's not going to be a lot of vulnerability — or maybe just one-sided vulnerability.
And then solo polyamory, I mean, there's so much overlap. But I would say the biggest difference for me — solo polyamory is about just kind of being at the center of your own life, not centering it around any particular person.
Um and really just valuing autonomy.
So it's not to say that like you're just completely avoidant or isolated or something like that, like you can still very much be immersed in the community. You can have a thriving social life.
It just means you're not going to sacrifice, like, your your desires or your needs in order to be with somebody else.
I mean, that's the way I would describe it.
Do you want to add anything?
M: Mmm. Mmmm. Mmmm.
Hmm, how wold I describe it?
Yeah, I think it's for me, and I know that maybe there are people that have nesting partners, you know, who could operate in this way that you're talking about.
But for me, it's like where possible at least choosing romantic connections with people who choose the structure of their lives where they have that autonomy.
So, yeah, for me, ideally for my partners, it's not having nesting parties, not having those, you know, really big pre-commitments that really limit what a connection can be.
And just like — I sort of think of it as like pure freedom because I love that about this life that you just really do never know where it's going to go. That's something I want and yeah.
And, yeah, and that includes — I think as well for me — a big alignment that I've learned through my work with you to be alive to, is that other folks certainly that I'm in romantic connections with, but even in friendships I need this alignment that they are on a similar growth journey to me. That they’re driven by that to know themselves more.
And, you know, develop authentic, harmonious relationships, and that includes having done the work, continuing to do the work and, you know, having the time and energy available to nurture relationships. And I feel like that can be challenging in polyamorous communities.
You know, I think the abundance that's possible out there is exciting, but I'm not sure how much people really know themselves to know what they have to offer.
You know?
So yeah, that's one thing I trying to be aware of in myself.
F: Mm hmm.
Yeah. It brings me back to this idea of control or ownership, particularly in this couple dynamics. It's not that like you're not allowed to love people or have a couple or something.
It's just usually within those dynamics there's like permission that gets asked or — I think you've experienced this. I've experienced this too— where I'm like trying to hang out with somebody and we can't make plans without the other person giving a green light or a red light. And it just feels like.
M: Yeah.
F: Almost like parental, like paternal, you know, it's just like a little annoying. Like, yeah, I just want to be a person with you.
M: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or I'd rather it was like — because ultimately I think it's, it's that individual managing their time, making decisions, you know?
So if it's around sexual health preferences or time, like if I pay attention to that language. Like is it that person saying it's my preference to do this, you know, or I'll check my calendar with let you if I'm available.
As opposed to or we have an agreement or I just need to check with blah, you know? Yeah, there's a way for people to be.
F: Well in this. I'll call it a round of break ups. I mean, understanding that breakups are also cyclical. So in this cycle that you're in — I mean, I've definitely felt and seen the ways that you're different this time around. Even the ways that you went into the relationships, the way that you're coming out of the relationships. In these themes of hope and hopelessness.
What feels different to you about how this round went? Like one specific thing I'm thinking of is what were the indicators to you that you're like, “Ooh, actually I'm really turned off. This isn’t gonna work for me.”
M: mmm, mmm, mmmm.
Honestly, it was my body. Like I think in both circumstances. Like just a real — in one there was a really strong knowing of an awareness that the other person had come to that, that they were just not being in alignment with an easeful — what I talked about before, you know, an open, free continuation of our connection.
And so that was just really instantaneous of just like, no. You know?
And at the same time a real beautiful gratitude to them for communicating honestly as soon as they were aware of that.
And yeah, and like a celebration that that's what they want. They didn't owe me anything otherwise. You know?
And yeah and at the same time as, you know, a grief of the beautiful connection that we had, that we could have had.
But yeah, that was a really amazing healing experience I think and.
F: Mmm.
M: Yeah. And then yeah. And then on, I think that was just this real awareness of us both having, you know, really tried to align what we were both wanting and what was available to give each other and
Yeah, just again it was just a real kind of, I reached that point of “ah, this just can't be what I need.” You know? like it was just Yeah. And,
and again, like just that acceptance and
But still there being grace there was what I imagined might have been possible. But it's that thing of grieving with love like possibility, you know, rather than actually also know. Keeping that in mind is one of the uh.
F: Aaaah.
That's one of the things I had noted. The seven bullet points celebrations.
It's like not clinging to a fantasy. Or even just like if you can acknowledge the fantasy and distinguish what is the fantasy versus reality. Not that I know about. I’ve definitely suffered through a lot of fantasies that I was unwilling to let go of hahahaha.
M: Yeah, yeah.
And ultimately, it being respectful to say, okay I hear — you know, I see what is alive in the other person. Like yeah it's it's almost not respectful to be wanting more and being cranky that I'm not getting. Like that's crazy again that person doesn't owe me time.
F: Yeah
M: Yeah it's it's down to me like what am I you know, enabling? What am I accepting? Yeah.
F: Oooooh.
M: yeah.
F: In my school right now — for folks who don't know — I'm in psychic school. And one of the lessons that I've learned recently is around love.
And we looked at the energy of love, like on a quantum physics level. And the way that I learned love really is — it's just like accepting somebody for who they are and where they.
Not needing your love to change that person. Not needing that person to change in general, but just being with them where they're at.
And that is a skill and a practice that culturally we don't really learn. And when I hear you give this example — to me, it just sounds like actually like really deep, profound love, you know?
And I think a common misconception in the empire — cultures of empire is that if we love somebody, then we have to sacrifice ourself or they need to sacrifice themself. We need to make it work at all costs.
There’s this idea that sacrifice is like really romantic or like martyrdom or something like that. But from a relationship anarchy lens, maybe love is just not forcing things, you know?
Maybe it's just a practice of acceptance.
M: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That definitely resonates.
And, yeah. And that thing of — because I think almost in a way like with my skills, shortcomings — I don't know — is the ability to, you know, have that goal of accepting where people are at. You know?
Like trying to adjust my expectations and, and put aside my needs for where they're at, you know, from that loving and accepting someone.
Yeah, but that's the piece that I'm trying to refine before now, I think I enter into a romantic relationship, is looking really objectively at, you know,
how our lives may or may not align when pursuing something.
Because I can look back now and realize that objectively it was always going to be tricky. But I guess in that abundant mindset, where like, you know, “maybe it could work and maybe we could enjoy our time together.”
Yeah. But I think for me, what I’ve learned is that there is is a minimum amount of time that I think is necessary to be able to spend with someone to enjoy time together, but also to be able to, you know, discuss things that come up in relationships. Process, heal and yeah.
F: If you don't mind — Were you going to say something else?
M: No, hahaha
F: I want to offer my reflections around like the more recent transition you're going through
Does that feel okay?
M: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
F: Okay, yeah.
M: I will say I think I feel a little bit of discomfort because, you know, I guess I imagine maybe either of those people — all of those people — that we've talked about, may end up hearing this and I don't want it to sound like I think I've been perfect in this. You know?
There’s definitely things that I wish that I had had the patience or stamina or resilience, kindness, you know, to do better around communication and
yeah, and ultimately my decisions have been either back to what you said earlier
yeah, what was I guess maybe my limits around those thing, like stamina and patience. .
F: Yeah.
M: Yeah but, I think, yeah, ultimately I do have love and respect at the heart of all those connections. It's, yeah — I just — we all do the best we can at the time.
F: Yeah.
I appreciate you saying that.
I feel like this is a good example of how society could look as a whole.
Like, what if we all experienced relationship transitions with such love and compassion? Just what a peaceful world we would live in.
And misalignments don't mean that somebody is bad or wrong or somebody’s right or good. It's just like, okay, misalignment is a misalignment. It's neutral.
If there's a scheduling conflict, we're not like demonizing the other person, you know? It's just a misalignment in schedules.
hahaha so
M: Yes. Yeah, Yeah.
F: Well, bringing it back to the ways I've seen you grow and transform over time, particularly your relationship with yourself. It's really stood out to me how that's kind of like rippled out into your relationships with others.
So if you do recall — I know you recall — uh, that you used to be actually like terrified of spending time alone.
M: hahahahah
Do you remember what I said when you said um, “have you thought about going on a holiday on your own?” — Do you remember what my response was?
“That would be like death!”
F: Like I remember like —
hahahaha
M: hahahaha drama.
F: Yeah, I remember the energy behind it, which was like. Like “what?”
Like, “you can't make me!”
hahaha
M: You’re not my real dad!
hahahaha
F: hahahha oh gosh
M: hahaha
Only my therapy Daddy.
hahaha
F: hahahaha
Your shadow work Daddy.
hahahahha
M: aaaah hahaha
Yessss. Oh, my God.
Call the podcast that mhmm
F: hahaha
Shadow Daddy.
M: So good.
F: Yeah, it definitely would appeal to a different audience.
M: Orrrrr the same audience.
Venn diagram.
F: hahahaha right.
We'll, I mean, it's just been amazing to me to see the way that your relationship to alone time has shifted where — like, you were kind of repulsed by it before. I get the image of, like, a cat not wanting to go into a bathtub, they're just like their toes are all spread out and their claws are out and they're like hanging on for dear life.
And they're like, “Don't put me in there.”
hahahaha
And then I remember the shift happening gradually where there was like a softening. And then eventually with time, it came to that point of like, “Oh, I cannot wait for this time by myself.”
And I was like, “Who are you? It's good to meet you. Like, who is this version of yourself? Because I don't know them.”
hahahhahaa
M: hahahaha
F: It’s been really cool to witness.
How has that felt for you to experience?
M: Hilarious. hahahaha
Yeah, really, Again, it's one of those, like, key pieces of, yeah, like the jewels of this work, you know, that then continue to support the work.
It's like, honestly, now I would so much rather be in my room, you know, having peaceful time on my own than, yeah, being in an uncomfortable or misaligned relationship.
And I think the pandemic — you know us having done this work — and the pandemic at the same time really helped me unpack this — like I was forced to really, you know, through both the things, be ok with it.
Yeah
And then discovering the gifts in realizing how much I need rest and how much, you know, I do get overstimulated by the world and need to decompress.
Yeah.
And even now — get ready — like, next level of who even am I? Cuz there are a lot of things I'm manifesting at the moment, you know, developing my sex work work.
I want to start studying soon two way touch. Like, interactive erotic education and sexological body work course.
I want to start spending more time in Melbourne.
And, and then I've got my life admin, which, you know, I struggle to keep on top of at the best of times.
And I was like, “I don't think I have time for a relationship right now. I've got all that shit I need to do. And I was like, “I beg your pardon?”
hahahaha
So there you go, mic drop.
F: hahaha
M: I know right?
F: A moment of re-meeting yourself.
You're like, “Oh, there's somebody new here.”
hahaha
M: Weird. So weird.
F: Yeah.
Sounds like you're clear on your priorities. Sounds like you have things that motivate you outside of just romance.
M: Sounds like solo polyamory / relationship anarchy.
You know?
You can have the manifesto beside the toilet, you know.
And eventually you do embody it yeah.
hahaha
Eventually.
hahahaha
F: Well, it's really stood out to me through this kind of transformation that you've gradually been stepping into. Now you're like this completely different person a few years later.
The ways...mmm…maybe the ways that you're turned off by people who are just in a different place than where you are now.
Like maybe a previous version of yourself would have gladly been turned on.
You know?
But as you seem to deepen into your quality time with yourself — that's what I would call it — it seems like that maybe there's a turn off around feeling somebody’s presence, but not the quality of their presence.
M: Yeah, yeah. And just knowing the cost. You know?
And I feel like at the moment the universe is testing me in this way.
You know?
I keep bumping into connections — old connections as you described. And a past me would have gone “Oh, my God. It's fate”
You know?
And, yeah. And I can go, “Oh, my God, I'm horny as fuck and they’re so beautiful and oh my god.”
You know?
And I know where that's going to go.
You know, lucky I have a toy collection.
F: hahaha
M: Yeah, I think I'm just more aware of the cost.
And again, it's really similar to my relationship with alcohol, you know, or my relationship to endurance of misaligned connections.
It's like — just because you can do these things doesn't mean you should.
And ultimately is going to support where I wanna go?
And I think the other thing that more and more is alive for me — is my girls are so much older now, and my god.
You know, they see my every move, you know and and I want to be modeling it to them and they model it to me.
Oh god.
It’s quite intense at the moment hahaha.
hahaha
F: Oh goodness hahaha
M: In a good way, in a good way.
But I yeah, my oldest, my life coach from my loins. She’s like, “I just don't understand why you're not just following your dreams.”
“And have you made an appointment with your account yet?”
“Are we going to Melbourne over next weekend.?'“
Oh my god, What have I created?
hahaha
F: hahaha
M: Oh my god, oh my god. Yep.
F: Love that hahaha
M: hahaha
F: Well, we're coming up towards the hour mark, so we’ll start wrapping up shortly. You and I could talk for hours, as we both know, and —
M: As we do.
F: We could definitely deepen on this topic to.
Right, right.
I wonder if there's anything you haven't said just that you wanted to circle back to?
Or…
Well, let me not overload you.
M: Hmmm, I’m just looking at what we flagged that we would talk about.
Is there anything else?
Oh, yeah, I would.
Yeah. I've definitely, you know, started this work to, I think, reduce my distress in my relationships and how I was navigating polyamory.
What it's become, I think, is — you know —
how I can most impact in the world. You know?
And I am also really passionate in —
I recognize that this intense way of working I can do because I am privileged enough, you know, to have the resources to invest in it.
And I'm so passionate about how what I describe to others when I describe our therapeutic relationship, you know. I describe it as like peer coaching and that it's not that hierarchical simulation patient model.
I really appreciate you sharing your life and your experiences of challenges on things that I'm experiencing.
And, you know, we are trying to create a similar life, and so it is that inherent validation of — it might be different to a lot of the world, but it is possible.
And so often we’re spookily having similar themes going on in our lives and it's been incredible.
Yeah, and I'm really passionate about — well, how can that proliferate in an accessible way within community, within individuals?
F: Mhmm.
M: Yeah, that's why I love sharing this.
And I feel a responsibility to do that. You know, I'm in roles where I can help make that happen. And I hope that I am.
F: Mhmm.
M: Does that resonate?
F: Yeah.
Are you kidding?
hahaha
M: Just checking.
Just checking we're still aligned.
hahaha
F: 100%
110%
hahaha
you know it
M: Yeah, hahaha
How does it feel in your body?
hahaha
F: That's a good question.
Yeah.
I feel it in my tummy. Like little tingles.
Yeah, adrienne maree Brown says “what we practice at the small scale sets the pattern for the whole system.”
So I definitely resonate with what you're saying about — How do we make this more accessible and how do we scale it?
And I know that these private interactions you and I have are just seeds that will ripple out.
And I really appreciate you bringing up this idea of like non-hierarchical, therapeutic relationship. That, in itself, could literally be an entire episode.
And I actually would love to circle back to that. It's a deep topic. I wrote an article about it. It's called Professionalism — The Death of Spirit.
But the summary is like — if people are seeking healing modalities, the hierarchy is going to get in the way of the healing, you know? So it's like more of a performance than like actual healing happening. Or maybe it's just surface level and you can't go as deep as you need to.
M: Yeaaaaah
F: I'll just leave it there for now. There’s a lot to say here.
hahaha
M: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
That resonates for me in the sexwork that I want to do. Yeah.
And the whole the whore-archy
F: haha I love that. Yeah.
So multiple episodes bookmarking.
M: Anyone thinks we should have our own podcast, please drop a comment.
F: hahahaha Literally.
M: hahaha
Comedy, kink and the revolution.
hahaha
F: Oh, wow.
We’re coming up with so many names in this one episode.
Yeah.
hahaha
We’ve got some ideas like put on the wall and brainstorm.
M: hahahaha I love it
F: I do want to add one little thread in before we close out and. It's tying it back to this theme of like hopefullness and hopelessness.
And I just I want to leave people listening with something tangible that they can practice themselves. I think we've done a good job of talking about like, what are some of the practices.
I just want to offer one practice. So it's the practice of just looking for evidence. Because there's always scarcity, there's always abundance coexisting alongside each other. So it's a matter of like, what are you searching for the evidence of?
Like — I mean, you can resonate with this in your experience, right?
Like when you're in that down place and you're like, “Oh, I don't know if there's any possibilities out there. X, Y, Z, My heart is broken and the dating pool is small”, whatever the thing is, you know?
Like, maybe those things are true and it's like, what do you want to do while you're in that spot?
Because you could definitely dig the hole deeper by continuing to search for the evidence of why not? why not?
And also there is just the reminder of like, “Oh yeah — what is also evident is that this is a cycle that will ebb and flow and this feeling is not going to last forever.”
And even just holding on to that little nugget, it could be like a life raft of sorts when you're just going through those dips.
M: I can see my new tattoo
hahahaha
ugh
hahahaha
F: You love it and you hate it hahahaha
M: hahaha
A little hibernating bear.
And then a life raft and just a circle.
Yeah hahaha
F: Oh sweet. Love that.
hahaha
M: yeah, yeah. Can I show it?
Because I was joking.
But I think I will show it.
So this is um — tell me if you can see it.
[showing a sticky note on their bedroom mirror]
M: Is that mirrored?
Can you read it?
F: Can you read it?
It's a little fuzzy.
M: So it's, um, “Hope: Notice the moments of abundance, pleasure, growth, and doing the right thing.”
F: Mm hmm.
M: That's that practice of, yeah — noticing abundance.
Abundance, pleasure, growth and doing the right thing.
F: That’s a really great way to wrap up the episode.
I do have one more question.
I bet people would be curious to know how that feels in the body — that practice to notice when those things are happening.
M: I think a relief, you know, is the biggest thing for me.
And, yeah, a smooth belly.
Yeah. Like, what’s the word?
A calm tummy and like bubbly excitement of “Oh, yeah” — in the face of everything that you just talked about — “there is this good stuff that is happening that I'm making happen.”
Yeah. And that’s what brings about hope.
F: Is that a bubbly excitement in your chest?
M: Yeah.
F: Like, moving upwards?
M: Yeaaah.
Yeah.
F: Cool.
Yeah. The body is such an effective communicator.
It's cool how excitement can literally manifest as, like, an upward energy or, like, even just the bubbles. That feels like a really cathartic way to experience excitement.
M: hehehehe like effervescence.
F: Yeah, yeah. Rising to the surface. Mm
Well, thanks for being on the podcast. I know that we're going to have more conversations, so this will be goodbye for now and I'll see you tomorrow for our session.
Wait — in two days — for our session hahaha
M: Two days hahaha
F: So we'll be seeing more of each other, but we'll say goodbye for now on the podcast. And yeah, just thanks for being open to sharing about your personal experiences.
I think that takes a lot of courage and there's definitely a gift in there for everybody.
So thanks for being willing.
M: Thank you.
Thank you for, yeah, being the catalyst — continuing to be the catalyst for me on this journey.
Who knows where it will go?
hehehehe
F: “Thank you for being a catalyst,” says the catalyst.
hahaha such mirroring
M: ah hahaha
oh meta
Outro
Thanks for tuning in, friends. That's all for today.
If you want to stay in touch with Melissa, you can follow them on Instagram @vixen_riot
I have that linked in the episode description.
I also have linked the organizations that they referenced today if you want to check those out.
And I'm also linking the blog posts that I read a part of.
And that's on my website AbundantFutures.net, where you can also book a session with me if you're looking for spiritual guidance.
And if you have any other feedback about the episode and you wanna share, you can send an email to AbundantFutures@gmail.com.
Peace be with you.
